Welcome, Charlie, from another Northern Californian!
Looking forward to another great learning experience!
Welcome Charlie Kittleson
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jingle_jangle
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Charlie: I believe that the Japanese order a high volume of Rickenbackers off the mark and as such the first of those manufactured may go to them. I have never heard or seen evidence that those new instruments that go anywhere else are any less in quality.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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soundmasterg
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It is interesting about the Japan phenomenon. I have had several visitors from Japan when we had our first VTV Lab in Silicon Valley 10 years ago. Many of them were very serious about finding vintage guitars to take back.
Japan has been mining the US and the UK of most of the good tubes, amps, speakers and other components since the 1960s. If you go to Akhabra in Japan, you will find a literal museum of vintage electronics there. You can get any tube, transformer, vintage speaker, guitar, capacitor, etc. They are fascinated with the remnants and trophies of the American Consumer Electronics Industry they consumed starting in the mid 1960s and continue to.
Japan has been mining the US and the UK of most of the good tubes, amps, speakers and other components since the 1960s. If you go to Akhabra in Japan, you will find a literal museum of vintage electronics there. You can get any tube, transformer, vintage speaker, guitar, capacitor, etc. They are fascinated with the remnants and trophies of the American Consumer Electronics Industry they consumed starting in the mid 1960s and continue to.
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jingle_jangle
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"1st quality"..... "seconds"?? Could you explain that in terms of the differences, Charlie? I would have thought that there was no such thing as a Rickenbacker "second". I was under the impression that any not "up to scratch" are either trashed or (if not serious) reworked!
"Never eat more than you can lift." - Mr. Moon
I have known many people who worked in guitar factories, worked for distributors and sold in retail stores. Not every guitar made is 1st quality. VIPs and special dealers get access to the factory production and "hand pick" the best sounding and best playing guitars. With some manufacturers, there are up to 5 "Grades" of guitars. You have to be on the inside track to buy the best ones.
Obviously, the defective ones, with cosmetic or mechanical defects are destroyed or disassembled. I have been in a few major guitar factories, including Fender and have seen dumpsters full of Stratocasters that were going to be sawed up because they did not want them to be resold on the retail market!!!
Every guitar is different, they are made from wood, glue, plastic and metal. The wood is always different, they all sound slightly different, pretty ones can sound not so pretty and not so pretty looking ones can sound beautiful!
If you guys think just going into a shop and buying any guitar is going to get you the best one, you are living a dream. Places like Musician's Friend and other discounters, usually get the lowest quality ones.
I am sorry to inform you of this, but its not what you know, its who you know and how much money you have.
Obviously, the defective ones, with cosmetic or mechanical defects are destroyed or disassembled. I have been in a few major guitar factories, including Fender and have seen dumpsters full of Stratocasters that were going to be sawed up because they did not want them to be resold on the retail market!!!
Every guitar is different, they are made from wood, glue, plastic and metal. The wood is always different, they all sound slightly different, pretty ones can sound not so pretty and not so pretty looking ones can sound beautiful!
If you guys think just going into a shop and buying any guitar is going to get you the best one, you are living a dream. Places like Musician's Friend and other discounters, usually get the lowest quality ones.
I am sorry to inform you of this, but its not what you know, its who you know and how much money you have.
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jingle_jangle
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Charlie, in the case of Rickenbackers, you are talking through your hat regarding "grades" of guitars, although your point about just walking into a shop and getting the best one is a good one.
You seem to be confusing the issue of "seconds" with the other issues of VIP guitars and normal variances in looks (woodgrain) and playability (neck profile, for instance).
I have bought seconds made by Gretsch and Gibson, but the difference between a first quality guitar and a second in each case was miniscule.
Rickenbacker does not allow seconds out of the factory, except as unusable "firewood". Period. If a guitar fails beyond repair or refinish at any point in the manufacturing process, it is history. Period again.
Of course Rick does occasionally build a special for a celeb. MCC's Bluebursts and the Hudson Purpleburst are two good examples. Of course, individual Ricks may sound/play different from one another, but these differences are becoming smaller and smaller since Rick has been controlling the shaping process more. I would say that this is most obvious in Rickenbacker instruments of the 1960s, although here again we have the issue of age and variations in climate, storage methods, repairs, modifications and setup to take into account.
I thought your original point in this mini-thread was about Rick making better guitars for Japan than the USA (patent nonsense). Now it has metamorphosed into "who you know and how much money you have".
What's the point here, Charlie?
You seem to be confusing the issue of "seconds" with the other issues of VIP guitars and normal variances in looks (woodgrain) and playability (neck profile, for instance).
I have bought seconds made by Gretsch and Gibson, but the difference between a first quality guitar and a second in each case was miniscule.
Rickenbacker does not allow seconds out of the factory, except as unusable "firewood". Period. If a guitar fails beyond repair or refinish at any point in the manufacturing process, it is history. Period again.
Of course Rick does occasionally build a special for a celeb. MCC's Bluebursts and the Hudson Purpleburst are two good examples. Of course, individual Ricks may sound/play different from one another, but these differences are becoming smaller and smaller since Rick has been controlling the shaping process more. I would say that this is most obvious in Rickenbacker instruments of the 1960s, although here again we have the issue of age and variations in climate, storage methods, repairs, modifications and setup to take into account.
I thought your original point in this mini-thread was about Rick making better guitars for Japan than the USA (patent nonsense). Now it has metamorphosed into "who you know and how much money you have".
What's the point here, Charlie?
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Insiders, VIP Dealers and important artists do get to "cherry pick" in some factories. If you can swear on the bible the Rick guitars are all perfect in every way and that no one gets into the factory for their Pick of the Ricks, then so be it.
I have played many guitars including Ricks that I thought sucked and would never buy them. I have been playing guitars now for 40 YEARS!!! I have been into hundreds of music stores all over the country and in most of Europe. There are a lot of ****** guitars with expensive price tags on them, including Ricks. I am a guitar snob and do not have brand loyalty to any maker. I buy what sounds and plays the best for me. And it does not have to be a Rick, although I want to find at least one to own very soon.
Gibson, Fender, Guild, Martin, Rick, Gretsch and other famous makers of guitars have released to the retail market, less than stellar guitars. Admit it, if you don't you are in serious denial.
I would not buy 9 out of 10 guitars I have tried. I am extremely picky and very critical of workmanship, materials used and design.
You may be right about Rick's quality being higher than the big three, but I find it hard to believe that every Rick sold is the best. They would go out of business if they rejected that many guitars.
I have played many guitars including Ricks that I thought sucked and would never buy them. I have been playing guitars now for 40 YEARS!!! I have been into hundreds of music stores all over the country and in most of Europe. There are a lot of ****** guitars with expensive price tags on them, including Ricks. I am a guitar snob and do not have brand loyalty to any maker. I buy what sounds and plays the best for me. And it does not have to be a Rick, although I want to find at least one to own very soon.
Gibson, Fender, Guild, Martin, Rick, Gretsch and other famous makers of guitars have released to the retail market, less than stellar guitars. Admit it, if you don't you are in serious denial.
I would not buy 9 out of 10 guitars I have tried. I am extremely picky and very critical of workmanship, materials used and design.
You may be right about Rick's quality being higher than the big three, but I find it hard to believe that every Rick sold is the best. They would go out of business if they rejected that many guitars.
Charlie: Rickenbacker is not building instruments on with the hope of selling them eventually, they are completing orders. As such they are building them for people like me and you who have placed orders or dealers who know their customers and are confident in what they want.
If you start with quality products, and keep this philosophy in mind, each instrument becomes something very personal. The materials and workmanship is a cut above the rest. Under the proper conditions and with genuine care paid to building the best the wastage is vastly reduced. No one is going to say that people don't make mistakes. But you will not see a Rickenbacker with "2nd" stamped on the back of the headstock. As you well know from your work, practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect and that could well be the Rickenbacker motto in my mind.
I am very glad that you have agreed to talk about tubes and amplifiers here and I respect your right to express your views. The good news for us is that we get to learn about the ins and outs of tubes and amplifiers. The very good news for you is that you get to learn more about Rickenbackers. I will trust your experience when it comes to tubes and ask that you grant us the same latitude when it comes to Rickenbackers.
When you find the model of Rickenbacker, new or used, that suits your fancy, I want to see that photo with the big smile on your face. Let us know what you are looking for and we will find it for you.
If you start with quality products, and keep this philosophy in mind, each instrument becomes something very personal. The materials and workmanship is a cut above the rest. Under the proper conditions and with genuine care paid to building the best the wastage is vastly reduced. No one is going to say that people don't make mistakes. But you will not see a Rickenbacker with "2nd" stamped on the back of the headstock. As you well know from your work, practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect and that could well be the Rickenbacker motto in my mind.
I am very glad that you have agreed to talk about tubes and amplifiers here and I respect your right to express your views. The good news for us is that we get to learn about the ins and outs of tubes and amplifiers. The very good news for you is that you get to learn more about Rickenbackers. I will trust your experience when it comes to tubes and ask that you grant us the same latitude when it comes to Rickenbackers.
When you find the model of Rickenbacker, new or used, that suits your fancy, I want to see that photo with the big smile on your face. Let us know what you are looking for and we will find it for you.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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jingle_jangle
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Charlie, length of time that you've been playing does not automatically grant you knowledge about the business practices of guitar companies or their internal policies, although it can make you cynical and a bit entrenched in your beliefs.
Rickenbackers are ENTIRELY handmade once the basic body shapes and routs are completed. (Additionally, some low-demand models are still not digitized, so even more of these models are made by hand. When I was at the factory two weeks ago, there was one gentleman with obvious expertise, hand-shaping the neck heel for a neck-through solidbody.)
There are many, many operations to building one of these instruments, and only the most preliminary ones are automated to give the guitars a consistent shape and to most accurately locate critical components on the shell. Fret slot sawing is of course CNC as well.
Minor glitches are inevitable in such a labor-intensive process, and when one is found (there are MANY inspections), the guitar is tagged and pulled off the line for rework and then re-inspected.
Peter talks about genuine care in manufacturing. The factory is so clean that you could eat off the floor, as opposed to Gretsch's Terada, Japan factory, which is incredibly dirty and cluttered. (Still, Terada turns out good instruments, though quite a few seconds make it onto eBay!) Most RIC employees have been on board for a number of years, some for decades, and they KNOW THEIR JOBS. There is a vibe of individuals caring.
I would suggest that you judge Rickenbacker quality by looking at a NEW guitar as it's pulled out of its case for the FIRST time. Too many guitars in shops have been tinkered with and played by looky-loos, and the few Ricks in stock at dealers often suffer this fate, too. Some techs have never seen a new Rick and try to work their own "magic" on them, leading to bad setups and rumors of "bad" guitars. When one is hung on the wall and not guarded, players--some of them certified meatball butchers--will gravitate toward it out of burning curiosity.
The only bad-playing Ricks I have played are older ones which have not had a service in years and sometimes decades.
BTW, I've been playing for 41 years and 5 months, for what it's worth. I'll take your advice on tube amps anytime.
I'm still confused here--are we talking about VIP guitars or factory seconds. As I mentioned here--RIC does do VIP work on occasion, but you will never see a second in anything but bandsawn bits in a locked dumpster.
Rickenbackers are ENTIRELY handmade once the basic body shapes and routs are completed. (Additionally, some low-demand models are still not digitized, so even more of these models are made by hand. When I was at the factory two weeks ago, there was one gentleman with obvious expertise, hand-shaping the neck heel for a neck-through solidbody.)
There are many, many operations to building one of these instruments, and only the most preliminary ones are automated to give the guitars a consistent shape and to most accurately locate critical components on the shell. Fret slot sawing is of course CNC as well.
Minor glitches are inevitable in such a labor-intensive process, and when one is found (there are MANY inspections), the guitar is tagged and pulled off the line for rework and then re-inspected.
Peter talks about genuine care in manufacturing. The factory is so clean that you could eat off the floor, as opposed to Gretsch's Terada, Japan factory, which is incredibly dirty and cluttered. (Still, Terada turns out good instruments, though quite a few seconds make it onto eBay!) Most RIC employees have been on board for a number of years, some for decades, and they KNOW THEIR JOBS. There is a vibe of individuals caring.
I would suggest that you judge Rickenbacker quality by looking at a NEW guitar as it's pulled out of its case for the FIRST time. Too many guitars in shops have been tinkered with and played by looky-loos, and the few Ricks in stock at dealers often suffer this fate, too. Some techs have never seen a new Rick and try to work their own "magic" on them, leading to bad setups and rumors of "bad" guitars. When one is hung on the wall and not guarded, players--some of them certified meatball butchers--will gravitate toward it out of burning curiosity.
The only bad-playing Ricks I have played are older ones which have not had a service in years and sometimes decades.
BTW, I've been playing for 41 years and 5 months, for what it's worth. I'll take your advice on tube amps anytime.
I'm still confused here--are we talking about VIP guitars or factory seconds. As I mentioned here--RIC does do VIP work on occasion, but you will never see a second in anything but bandsawn bits in a locked dumpster.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
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soundmasterg
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When Guitar Center was still a RIC dealer, I used to see Rickenbacker guitars there that weren't setup correctly, and as a consequence, didn't play very well. But then who knows who mucked with it? We all know what kind of people work at Guitar Centers and how unknowledgeable they are about most things having to do with the product(s) they sell. Kudos to RIC for dumping them as a dealer!