I think you may have misunderstood me. Let me rephrase my question.
I meant that the coloring itself was made to look like John's guitar as it now sits. Epi made the descision to simply tint the nitro to to make it match. Would it not have been better to stain the guitar and match it that way? I'm sure it was a cost cutting measure. I would have preferred they just left it natural.
Lennon Rev. Casino Finish
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jingle_jangle
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Well, since John's guitar was not actually stained, to replicate that would have been inaccurate. The thin varnish or nitro on John's guitar has yellowed with time, but (and this is the key), so has the wood!
So, the question would be, how to go about replicating an aged guitar with yellowed wood as well as yellowed varnish or nitro in a production situation?
The answer to this is not "stain the wood to look old", because it is difficult to do for one guitar and impossible to do for a series, due to the way fresh, unsealed wood soaks up wood stain. Thus, no two would look alike, and few would resemble John's guitar.
So, make the guitar out of fresh, new wood, seal it and then spray a tinted lacquer over it to make it look like it's 40 years old. Presto, production antiqued guitar. Looks like John's, photographs well, satisfies the punters in a store, but the downside is the wear you are dissatisfied with.
And, I would be, too.
So, the question would be, how to go about replicating an aged guitar with yellowed wood as well as yellowed varnish or nitro in a production situation?
The answer to this is not "stain the wood to look old", because it is difficult to do for one guitar and impossible to do for a series, due to the way fresh, unsealed wood soaks up wood stain. Thus, no two would look alike, and few would resemble John's guitar.
So, make the guitar out of fresh, new wood, seal it and then spray a tinted lacquer over it to make it look like it's 40 years old. Presto, production antiqued guitar. Looks like John's, photographs well, satisfies the punters in a store, but the downside is the wear you are dissatisfied with.
And, I would be, too.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Randy: I own a MIK Casino, what minor upgrades did you make to yours? On mine the selector switch is finicky and the neck pick up was installed backwards. Was not professionaly set up. but intonation seems good, Stays in tune quite well. I like the finish on it. I'm not interested in an authentic finish look, otherwise I would have shelled out for an Elite or Lennon repro. model. Just curious.
Brian: I haven't undertaken any upgrades myself (yet). The most popular ones including changing out the pick-up selector for a Switchcraft model, going with nylon saddles on the bridge, and some folks opt for the TonePros bridge for improved sustain. Of course the pick-ups are often changed too. My cherry MIK Casino was played by a local semi-pro who obviously had the guitar set-up very well. I don't know if he changed anything out (like the switch or pick-ups). My ebony and sunburst MIK Casinos were purchased new and have hardly been played. They sound good, but could probably be better. My MIJ Elite is perfect as is. So many guitars, so little time...
Jamie what you are experiencing is normal for lacquer guitars. I have a 66 Strat in ocean torquiose. I bought it in 1974.
When I got it I thought that the orginal owner must have had sweaty hands as the paint was worn thru on the neck at the 3rd, fifth, and seventh fret to the natural wood.
Now in the last month after looking on the web at Strats of simular age. The all have that.
Lacquer is very easy to apply, looks shiny, and can even be brushed on and dry with out brush marks. But It Is Not A Durable Finish.
I have a Gretsch thats done in Lacquer and I have to be real picky about caring for it. My Ric with a poly finish is a 110 times more durable than the Gretsch. All of my Later model Strats are like tanks with the poly.
I will draw flames here but I think that most of the so called better sound from lacquer is just hype and myth. People just like the warmer and deeper look of a lacquer finish.
I feel confident enought that I'd say lets record ten guitars but one done in lacquer with the rest done in poly and have some with what they think are excellent ears find the lacquer one in the bunch.
When I got it I thought that the orginal owner must have had sweaty hands as the paint was worn thru on the neck at the 3rd, fifth, and seventh fret to the natural wood.
Now in the last month after looking on the web at Strats of simular age. The all have that.
Lacquer is very easy to apply, looks shiny, and can even be brushed on and dry with out brush marks. But It Is Not A Durable Finish.
I have a Gretsch thats done in Lacquer and I have to be real picky about caring for it. My Ric with a poly finish is a 110 times more durable than the Gretsch. All of my Later model Strats are like tanks with the poly.
I will draw flames here but I think that most of the so called better sound from lacquer is just hype and myth. People just like the warmer and deeper look of a lacquer finish.
I feel confident enought that I'd say lets record ten guitars but one done in lacquer with the rest done in poly and have some with what they think are excellent ears find the lacquer one in the bunch.
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jingle_jangle
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Dan, you won't get any flames from me on this topic. I've said this for years and I'm glad to hear somebody else has this opinion.
BTW, late model Strats (all? some? too many models to generalize!) are finished in polyester, which except for susceptibility to chipping, is bulletproof.
I do not agree, however, that lacquer has a "warmer and deeper look". Polyurethanes and polyesters are MUCH deeper than any lacquer, and they protect many, many times better.
Cynicism in marketing once again causes companies to charge more for lacquer when it's easier to spray, rub out, and shine, but wears poorly and requires a lot of care to keep looking good.
Rickenbacker switched to conversion varnish almost 50 years ago! What does that tell you about cv's superiority over nitrocellulose or acrylic?
BTW, late model Strats (all? some? too many models to generalize!) are finished in polyester, which except for susceptibility to chipping, is bulletproof.
I do not agree, however, that lacquer has a "warmer and deeper look". Polyurethanes and polyesters are MUCH deeper than any lacquer, and they protect many, many times better.
Cynicism in marketing once again causes companies to charge more for lacquer when it's easier to spray, rub out, and shine, but wears poorly and requires a lot of care to keep looking good.
Rickenbacker switched to conversion varnish almost 50 years ago! What does that tell you about cv's superiority over nitrocellulose or acrylic?
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Back to the Casino....I just got a MIK sunburst Casino. Finish is excellent, looks great, intonation and action are both good. My problem seems to be a '60-cycle hum' when it's plugged into my amp. (I use the same guitar cord and general set-up with my other guitars, and don't have the hum, so I don't think it's the cord or the amp.)
The hum decreases as I move away from the amp. Now, I've noticed this happening on some of my single-coil guitars when I'm sitting near the monitor of my DAW, and I just move around to compensate for that. But this seems to be coming from the Casino. Anybody have any experience/advice? Have I got a problem child, or a simple fix by a competent guitar guy will fix?
The hum decreases as I move away from the amp. Now, I've noticed this happening on some of my single-coil guitars when I'm sitting near the monitor of my DAW, and I just move around to compensate for that. But this seems to be coming from the Casino. Anybody have any experience/advice? Have I got a problem child, or a simple fix by a competent guitar guy will fix?
No flames intended (just a bic lighter LOL), but finish does indeed have a role in sound, it's not just hype...the only way to tell for sure is to compare an instrument that's had both thick and thin finishes in the time you've been playing it, rather than two different instruments with two different finishes. You all seem primarily focused on durability and appearance, and I agree, a thick coat of poly will serve your needs well. For someone primarily concerned with the SOUND, there is no doubt in my mind that a thinner finish, be it poly or lacquer, allows the instrument to "breathe", and somehow the tone seems to open up...not "screaming for air encased in a glass finish" as someone else eloquently phrased it,
Especially with neck-thru and set-neck guitars.
I personally believe the RIC finish to be beautiful and durable, but my 4001 came to life when I sanded off the stock thick poly and put a very thin coating of rub-on poly in its place. Yes, the new finish is not as glossy and "pretty",but more importantly, the SOUND of the instrument is improved...more rounded, slightly less bright, but most important to me is to have human skin and bones in contact with nearly bare wood...the instrument vibrates more, no doubt, and I want those vibrations to vibrate through my skeleton when I play...the same effect you get when you press the headstock of your guitar against a door jamb while you play it...the whole doorjamb vibrates in sympathy, and suddenly the guitar has resonance and bass. I want that same resonant effect in my body when I play, and I've found that, although beautiful, the RIC finish is just too darned thick to let these instruments fully speak. I believe they need to be made that way to satisfy consumer demands...people can be quite anal when it comes to a guitar's appearance, so durability is important for the mass market.. but for the life of me I can't figure out why people will strip a stock RIC finish and want the same heavy coat of vibration-damping "glass" put right back on. These people owe it to themselves to spend a week playing the instrument bare naked, no finish, before they have it re-sprayed. It's really a question of priorities.. looks vs. resale value vs. feel.... but then again, that thick RIC finish has preserved these guitars better than a thin finish could have, preserving them for future appreciators. But in regard to a Lennon model Casino...did you buy it for the thin finish, or for the Beatle Factor? Having stripped a guitar by hand myself, there is no doubt in my mind Lennon did NOT have the patience or mechanical inclination to do this himself to his own Casino...he was notorious for that. He may have done it strictly for appearance sake, but George did comment on how sanding off the guitars made them better sounding.
Especially with neck-thru and set-neck guitars.
I personally believe the RIC finish to be beautiful and durable, but my 4001 came to life when I sanded off the stock thick poly and put a very thin coating of rub-on poly in its place. Yes, the new finish is not as glossy and "pretty",but more importantly, the SOUND of the instrument is improved...more rounded, slightly less bright, but most important to me is to have human skin and bones in contact with nearly bare wood...the instrument vibrates more, no doubt, and I want those vibrations to vibrate through my skeleton when I play...the same effect you get when you press the headstock of your guitar against a door jamb while you play it...the whole doorjamb vibrates in sympathy, and suddenly the guitar has resonance and bass. I want that same resonant effect in my body when I play, and I've found that, although beautiful, the RIC finish is just too darned thick to let these instruments fully speak. I believe they need to be made that way to satisfy consumer demands...people can be quite anal when it comes to a guitar's appearance, so durability is important for the mass market.. but for the life of me I can't figure out why people will strip a stock RIC finish and want the same heavy coat of vibration-damping "glass" put right back on. These people owe it to themselves to spend a week playing the instrument bare naked, no finish, before they have it re-sprayed. It's really a question of priorities.. looks vs. resale value vs. feel.... but then again, that thick RIC finish has preserved these guitars better than a thin finish could have, preserving them for future appreciators. But in regard to a Lennon model Casino...did you buy it for the thin finish, or for the Beatle Factor? Having stripped a guitar by hand myself, there is no doubt in my mind Lennon did NOT have the patience or mechanical inclination to do this himself to his own Casino...he was notorious for that. He may have done it strictly for appearance sake, but George did comment on how sanding off the guitars made them better sounding.
Jo- In regards to the Lennon Casino purchase I admittedly bought it because of the Beatle factor. My big issue with it though is not really so much the wear from the thin layer of nitro but with the fact that the nitro had a color tint in it. The wear now shows the guitar was colored.
It bothers me that Epi took a stupid shortcut to make the color match John's rather than be true to the original and let it age naturally on its own. I thought that was part of the reason for the inspection was to get it right! Not to use a faux color finish.
But not only was the body spayed with this tinted finish, the bindings on a big majority were also overspayed as well making the binding look orange.
As for who actually stripped John & George's Casino's I think they actually did it themselves. The job was pretty poor if you look at various pictures. You can still see areas that were not completely stripped.
The motivation I recall was that while in India Donovan told them that the wood in a guitar needs to breath and that they sound much better without the paint. I imagine both J & G made a little project out of it on their return from India.
It bothers me that Epi took a stupid shortcut to make the color match John's rather than be true to the original and let it age naturally on its own. I thought that was part of the reason for the inspection was to get it right! Not to use a faux color finish.
But not only was the body spayed with this tinted finish, the bindings on a big majority were also overspayed as well making the binding look orange.
As for who actually stripped John & George's Casino's I think they actually did it themselves. The job was pretty poor if you look at various pictures. You can still see areas that were not completely stripped.
The motivation I recall was that while in India Donovan told them that the wood in a guitar needs to breath and that they sound much better without the paint. I imagine both J & G made a little project out of it on their return from India.
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jingle_jangle
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Jo, no offense taken. I do agree and have pointed out that there is a difference between the sonic quaities of highly-finished hollowbodied guitars and guitars with more "open" finishes.
But your claim that stripping your solid-bodied, neck-through bass...well, congratulations...you give Radar O'Reilly a run for his bucks! I tend to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, so I think this is possible, though perhaps not noticeable to 90% of listeners.
The lacquer finish on the early Casinos was VERY thin, and I'd bet that John was not beyond grabbing some nasty sandpaper and having a go at it. The pictures of the Casino in Babchuk's book look awfully raw...
But your claim that stripping your solid-bodied, neck-through bass...well, congratulations...you give Radar O'Reilly a run for his bucks! I tend to give everybody the benefit of the doubt, so I think this is possible, though perhaps not noticeable to 90% of listeners.
The lacquer finish on the early Casinos was VERY thin, and I'd bet that John was not beyond grabbing some nasty sandpaper and having a go at it. The pictures of the Casino in Babchuk's book look awfully raw...
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut