Getting the Squire/Lee Sound

gpatt5762 · Post by **gpatt5762** » Mon Aug 05, 2002 5:09 pm

Uh, John,

I think I was actually agreeing with you without really coming out and saying it; so let me clarify myself:

My first Rick, bought back in '92 was an MG/BT 4003, with stock Hi-Gains. I dutifully removed the pickup cover. I tried different techniques to get "That Sound", to no avail. The closest I got, based on listening to ATWAS and ESL was to pull the strings just as hard as I could stand to, and whack them against the top fret, and get just a taste of that "snarl", my term for it, every once in a while. I was, at the time just clueless about "Vintage Pickups" or other related concepts. The bass got traded off for a Conklin fretless in '95.

FFW to Feb., 2002. I discover This Board. I learn of the fine points regarding "Toasters" and "Horseshoes"; the Light Comes On!.

April, 2002: I score DuPont's Jetglo 4003S on eBay, get re-issue gear from Rhoads Music, commence to a-routin' an' a-solderin' (weeeell, dowgies!), and ~~modify~~ bastardize a perfectly good 4003S.

It looks and sounds like a Factory Job. Only if you lift the guard, or use a trained eye, can you tell otherwise.

And it ain't too boomy, neither. I admit to using a SansAmp myself at church to play the Rick into the house system , but in my headphones, dude, it sounds FRAGILE- and close enough for RUSH too.

I firmly believe, based on where I've been with my 4003S, that more owes to on-instrument gear in search of a pleasing sound, than, amp stuff.

Dissents welcome. John, we're not so far apart really.

Cheers,
Garry

craigv · Post by **craigv** » Tue Aug 06, 2002 2:11 am

*Progress Report*

Well guys, I ran out to Radio Shack the other night and found a .0047uF. Finally got the courage to open her up and crank up the Weller soldering station. With everything well protected with towels and cardboard, I performed the wirectomy and capacitor implant. Sewed her back up and hurried to the basement to power up the SWR. Nice tone from the bridge! Flip to middle, no change, flip to neck, zilch..no sound at all. Back upstairs, open her up, look for shorted or open wire, find none, put it back together this time with 2 screws. Back downstairs, try again. This time, everything works. Hmm, odd. Oh well, I've learned to accept what I can't change....

I find that with both pu's running, I have to back the bass volume just slightly off full to get the sound right. Otherwise the neck seems to completely dominate the bridge. I wonder if that's the balance issue I've read Mark discuss. I'll reread and maybe print that off and try adjusting it tonite (wife's out of town all week so I can spend the whole nite messing about with basses). But regardless, the change in tone is remarkable. Not quite Fragile, but the fireglo is turning more cream-colored....

Thanks very much for the advice and discussion. I'll keep posting progress (and setbacks) as they come.

gpatt5762 · Post by **gpatt5762** » Tue Aug 06, 2002 9:02 am

Craig,

Mine are slightly mismatched, but in my case, my ideal settings are Neck= 10; Bridge=5, so to bring the Bridge pickup up full requires special circumstances. For a Suire sound, I go Neck= 9; Brige = 10, and to sound like RUSH, I just go flat out with it.

Garry

mortivan · Post by **mortivan** » Tue Aug 06, 2002 11:03 am

Hey Garry,

I understand what you mean now. I was thinking about getting vintage pick-ups, but I've decided to leave my 4003 stock (except for the cap.) and keep my eyes open for a used (obviously) 4001S. Can't have too many Ric's.

I know you smile to yourself when you hear that Fragile-istic sound in your headphones! Doesn't matter if nobody else hears it - it's your bass, and your fingers generating it

See ya.

mortivan · Post by **mortivan** » Tue Aug 06, 2002 11:11 am

Hey Craig,

Good going!

Here was my "progress report."

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jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Sun Nov 24, 2002 2:53 pm

A lot of the cool bass sounds of Chris Squire and Geddy Lee come from using a pick, treble, low action, single coil pickups, distortion and other effects. The old Geddy Lee Sound from '75 to '85 is best achieved with a Rickenbacker. The modern geddy Lee sound is better achieved with a jazz bass run into a big PA. Both Geddy and Chris achieved this sound using different basses and different amps ... The Rickenbacker is a good place to start ... then a fresh set of strings and low action.

In todays world the line 6 bass pod is great for effects and tone shaping ... also the Tech 21 Sans amp is good as well ... see the thread on Line 6 Pod and my post there for a good setting for the line 6 ...

I have an '68, '74, and a '89 Ric and I can get a Geddy / Chris sound out of any of them ... or with one of my jazz basses I can get the modern Geddy sound ...

The old geddy sound had more treble bite on the low notes and more bass on the high notes and the sound of driven speakers and less overhead in the amp again the ric is perfect for this sound ... the new Geddy sound is more bass on the low notes and more treble on the high notes also it is has more overhead and less of a driven speaker sound ... all distortion comes from the effects and none from the amp/PA ... The newer geddy lee sound you is like having 2 instruments the low notes are like a bass and the high notes are like a lead instrument ...

A cool song for the Chris Squire sound is "Astral Traveler" the is a pre "Yes Album" song ... very cool bass ... notice the really cool nastyness of the low notes ... then as he goes up the neck they get bassier and sweeter ... this has to be the neck pickup working ...

Also the bass can get too boomy this is not too much bass ... this can be fixed with a graphic eq ... cut the 250 or 300 hz setting a few db ...

By using these tips you may not sound exactly like Chris or Geddy but You will sound similar and you will have a sound that cuts through the mix ... a lot of Chris and Geddy's sound comes from how they play ... the way they hit the string, the confidence from years of playing, the speed and dexterity from lots of practice ...

gaboik · Post by **gaboik** » Sun Nov 24, 2002 5:39 pm

You all have to hear the Fragile album remixed to DVD audio in 6 channel sound. The Rick never sounded so good. The bass sound is much more in front of the mix than the standard stereo version!!!!

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Mon Nov 25, 2002 7:15 pm

Also Chris Squire put a bunch of stickers on his 4001/s bass in the 60's flower power era ... he then had it refinished to cream and the luthier shaved a little wood from the bass to get a surface that could be refinished ... he also added the rick-o-sound ... the thinner wood changed the tone of the bass ....

gpatt5762 · Post by **gpatt5762** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 5:14 am

Seems to me like I've had to choose:

EITHER Roto-Sound Strings OR low action. My attemptd to do my own truss rod tweaks have dang near S-curved the neck of my 4003S.

But I still don't trus the local shops with my Rick...

Garry

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:18 am

If you use flat wound strings the Chris/geddy sound just aint there ... Flat wounds have a cool retro sound but I am hooked on the round wound sound ... gee that sounds euphonious ...

I own like 9 basses and another one is being built ... so I only buy strings that cost under $10 a set .... I used to buy expensive strings ... DR's are the best ... some of the brand name strings have been sitting on the shelf too long and are dead right out of the package ... I hate paying $25 for dead strings ... Also there are only a few places in the world that make bass strings and they sell to several different companies who then put their own label on them ...

you can get low action with round wounds ... My '74 ric has a wonderful neck ... very low action ... no s curves .... my 4003 has a good neck as well ... my '68 had really high action when I bought it in '73 so I only paid $150 ... It was a gamble, it had the old tape wound strings on it that were so old they were rusting under the tape. Well I took it to a shop and had the neck adjusted and it has been fine ever since ... The '60's neck are weaker and harder to keep straight, but they are slimmer and feel good in your hand. Also you can bend the neck with the right pressure to increase fret buzz to emphasize a note. I restore rics and build basses but I don't touch Ric truss rods... Find a good professional. A bad adjustment can ruin a Rickenbacker.

The right amount of fret buzz is an important part of the Chris/Geddy sound. If you set the action right then you can control the buzz by how hard you hit the string and whether or not you use a pick.

Also Chris Squire uses a pick a little differently than most bass players ... the pick protrudes just a little below his thumb and he uses his thumb to change the sound. You can get a range of softer and harder pick sounds and harmonics using this method. Try playing around with this method ...

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Sat Nov 30, 2002 4:50 pm

More on the Geddy Lee sound ...

When he records he splits the signal into 3 tracks

one regular

one with more bass

one with distortion

then he mixes the tracks to his liking.

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Thu Dec 05, 2002 5:08 pm

Geddy is interested in getting a 4000 Ric ... Here's a quote from an interview circa 1999 ...

Lee: Right now I'm looking for an old Rickenbacker 4000, single pickup. I've always used a double pickup model. Recently I was in Seattle at the music museum that Paul Allen set up out there, the Experience Music Project. They have a great collection of guitars. One of the things I saw in their collection was this beautiful 4000 model Ricky bass, and I've been kind of obsessed by it so I'm looking for one right now.