How to tell a refin
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green_us90
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atomic_punk
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ken_swearingen
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Sadly, it may not be a dead issue when/if Marc ever decides to sell it.....If I didn't have a 4005 already, it would not be an issue to me.
When I got my first one...I paid a premium for it. It IS original, not a refinish, but that didn't matter to ME. I wanted a 4005. Nobody knew about that one but me, and I made the decision to pay Garys price. On the other hand, the double bound model I bought IS a refinish. I would have paid a great deal MORE for this one if I HAD to....but I paid the sellers asking price BECAUSE he had set it at that price.....in HIS mind, it WAS worth less because it was a refinish. I guess it kind of evened out in the long run, eh Jeff Scott ?
When I got my first one...I paid a premium for it. It IS original, not a refinish, but that didn't matter to ME. I wanted a 4005. Nobody knew about that one but me, and I made the decision to pay Garys price. On the other hand, the double bound model I bought IS a refinish. I would have paid a great deal MORE for this one if I HAD to....but I paid the sellers asking price BECAUSE he had set it at that price.....in HIS mind, it WAS worth less because it was a refinish. I guess it kind of evened out in the long run, eh Jeff Scott ?
1973 4001 MG cb fwi
1986 4003 Shadow
2012 4004Cii FG w/gold trim
1986 4003 Shadow
2012 4004Cii FG w/gold trim
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ken_swearingen
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ken_swearingen
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throw_this_away
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"John, keep in mind Marc,is referring to his 4005 which he paid $7500.for does that sound like a player to you? No its an investment he wants to make sure all is as it should be."
Oh I know. That is why I mentioned that people who are looking to get a bass as a player or collector will often have different expectations. I would be just as picky if I was Marc.
p.s. Marc... I love your two custom jobs. I think you will find that you become more attached to them simply because they are "your work."
Oh I know. That is why I mentioned that people who are looking to get a bass as a player or collector will often have different expectations. I would be just as picky if I was Marc.
p.s. Marc... I love your two custom jobs. I think you will find that you become more attached to them simply because they are "your work."
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jingle_jangle
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I promised myself I would stay out of this thread, following my last philosophical post.
1. If you can't tell it's a refin, then who cares?
2. Do what you like, and do it well, when it comes to refinishing. And get your buyer or dealer (when you sell) to see your piece for what it is--a beauty, well-done and well-cared-for.
I have refinished lots and lots of guitars of many different brands. Back in the day (actually, 1981), I refinished a '65 Fender Jaguar--original color--LPB. It was indistinguishable from a factory job. A couple of years later I used it as a part trade against another guitar. The dealer made a big deal over the refin, couldn't give me full value, it had been modified, etc., etc.
I'll re-state. It was indistinguishable from an original LPB Jaguar. The only way he knew was that I told him it was a refin.
We haggled and haggled and eventually I got a figure for it that was much closer to mine than to his. He REALLY wanted that guitar, but was unwilling to concede his point about refins lowering the value.
Two weeks later I stopped in for some picks or something, and--you guessed it--there it was, on the wall, marked "mint condition!!!", priced at nearly double what he paid for it, no mention of its being a refinish. It was the most expensive of a half-dozen Jags in the place.
Do you guys get my point? The only difference between then and now is the prices, which, BTW, have NOT kept up with inflation in the case of this model.
3. "Send it to RIC for analysis". Yeah, Dave, and while you're at it, why not toss some vintage knobs into the box, too, to have them tell you what year, month, and day (maybe even hour?) they were made. That'll help you to date your bass, and tell you if the knobs are counterfeits, or were ever removed for cleaning...
Then, maybe take some swabs from under the pickguard (be sure to use sterile distilled water). Bag those up and send 'em off, too.
RIC can tell you which person on their payroll 25 years ago, assembled the pickguard and dripped a drop of sweat underneath it before he screwed it down.
NOT.
BTW, I have a early '80s FG 330/6 in for a refin right now, and looking at it, you would swear it's been refinished once already. The spray pattern on the burst is all off, and it's splotchy and uneven. But the owner has had it since new, so we know it's 100% original. Could've been one that a new painter trained on...or it could have looked even when sprayed, and then it could've aged to an odd pattern.
You can't really be 100% certain without knowing a guitar's complete history, and once it passes through a dealer's hands (and here I'm referring more to music store type dealers, although others could be included, too) all bets are off. It's the equivalent of the bloodhounds losing the trace when George Clooney crosses the river...
1. If you can't tell it's a refin, then who cares?
2. Do what you like, and do it well, when it comes to refinishing. And get your buyer or dealer (when you sell) to see your piece for what it is--a beauty, well-done and well-cared-for.
I have refinished lots and lots of guitars of many different brands. Back in the day (actually, 1981), I refinished a '65 Fender Jaguar--original color--LPB. It was indistinguishable from a factory job. A couple of years later I used it as a part trade against another guitar. The dealer made a big deal over the refin, couldn't give me full value, it had been modified, etc., etc.
I'll re-state. It was indistinguishable from an original LPB Jaguar. The only way he knew was that I told him it was a refin.
We haggled and haggled and eventually I got a figure for it that was much closer to mine than to his. He REALLY wanted that guitar, but was unwilling to concede his point about refins lowering the value.
Two weeks later I stopped in for some picks or something, and--you guessed it--there it was, on the wall, marked "mint condition!!!", priced at nearly double what he paid for it, no mention of its being a refinish. It was the most expensive of a half-dozen Jags in the place.
Do you guys get my point? The only difference between then and now is the prices, which, BTW, have NOT kept up with inflation in the case of this model.
3. "Send it to RIC for analysis". Yeah, Dave, and while you're at it, why not toss some vintage knobs into the box, too, to have them tell you what year, month, and day (maybe even hour?) they were made. That'll help you to date your bass, and tell you if the knobs are counterfeits, or were ever removed for cleaning...
Then, maybe take some swabs from under the pickguard (be sure to use sterile distilled water). Bag those up and send 'em off, too.
RIC can tell you which person on their payroll 25 years ago, assembled the pickguard and dripped a drop of sweat underneath it before he screwed it down.
NOT.
BTW, I have a early '80s FG 330/6 in for a refin right now, and looking at it, you would swear it's been refinished once already. The spray pattern on the burst is all off, and it's splotchy and uneven. But the owner has had it since new, so we know it's 100% original. Could've been one that a new painter trained on...or it could have looked even when sprayed, and then it could've aged to an odd pattern.
You can't really be 100% certain without knowing a guitar's complete history, and once it passes through a dealer's hands (and here I'm referring more to music store type dealers, although others could be included, too) all bets are off. It's the equivalent of the bloodhounds losing the trace when George Clooney crosses the river...
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
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ken_swearingen
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I disagree with Paul.
Dealers are not the ones telling us that refins decrease the value, it's collectors. These guitars are worth what collector's and players are willing to pay, not what the dealer tells us to pay.
Many of us are players, who, yes, if they like the guitar, couldn't care less if it was refinished. Some may even prefer it. I doubt anyone would pay top dollar for a refin.
As a matter of fact, to me, one of the things that separate collectability of Fenders and Rickenbackers is that with Fenders, "mojo" or what is also described as "honest player wear" is not only tolerated, but it many cases desired.
With Rickenbackers, it is different, while a guitar or bass with some wear are definitely collectible, the fine examples are almost always of fine finish as well. I believe it is because Rickenbacker is not only a fine playing instrument, but a fine looking one as well. A piece of art if you will.
This thread has really taken a wrong direction. I was looking for assistance in what would be tell-tale signs one way or another if a bass I purchased as an all-original collector's item is genuine or not.
I got out of the collectibles business 10 years ago because there were so many disputes over authenticity of items. Seems like collectible instruments have the same problems.
Dealers are not the ones telling us that refins decrease the value, it's collectors. These guitars are worth what collector's and players are willing to pay, not what the dealer tells us to pay.
Many of us are players, who, yes, if they like the guitar, couldn't care less if it was refinished. Some may even prefer it. I doubt anyone would pay top dollar for a refin.
As a matter of fact, to me, one of the things that separate collectability of Fenders and Rickenbackers is that with Fenders, "mojo" or what is also described as "honest player wear" is not only tolerated, but it many cases desired.
With Rickenbackers, it is different, while a guitar or bass with some wear are definitely collectible, the fine examples are almost always of fine finish as well. I believe it is because Rickenbacker is not only a fine playing instrument, but a fine looking one as well. A piece of art if you will.
This thread has really taken a wrong direction. I was looking for assistance in what would be tell-tale signs one way or another if a bass I purchased as an all-original collector's item is genuine or not.
I got out of the collectibles business 10 years ago because there were so many disputes over authenticity of items. Seems like collectible instruments have the same problems.
" It's not where you are, it's who you're with.".