No more "respectfully disagree", huh, Marc?
Dealers set prices and conditions for the entire marketplace. What any collector is willing to pay depends upon his/her taste, desire for a specific instrument, and available cash. If collectors would understand that THEY could control the market, this ridiculous situation would go away.
If quality restoration increases the value of houses, cars, airplanes, and boats, why not instruments?
"I doubt anyone would pay top dollar for a refin."
That's your opinion, and my own experience tells me otherwise. But, I repeat, it must be done on an item-by-item basis.
Collectible instruments have the problem of authenticity because so many dealers are bandits, despite the veneer of gentility that the "big guy" collectibles dealers present. And there are a lot of dealer wannabees who misrepresent.
Wrong direction? Weren't we discussing refinishes? You seem to be pretty paranoid about whether your bass is original or not. My posts were meant to expand on KJS' statement that, if you can't tell, it makes no difference. If you were seeking solace, you got it. If you were seeking fact, you got it too. But as long as you persist in believing dealers' self-serving rubbish, you have to extend that belief into worrying about old paint or new paint.
How to tell a refin
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jingle_jangle
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ken_swearingen
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Paul,I disagree OK! not respectfully are you happy LOL .
If you have a COLLECTOR car thats original untouched factory paint its called a "surviver" they are worth considerably more then a restored car of the same exact make.
That goes for cars, guitars, boats ,houses....AS long as they are HISTORIC or COLLECTIBLE!
Something is only original once.
If you have a COLLECTOR car thats original untouched factory paint its called a "surviver" they are worth considerably more then a restored car of the same exact make.
That goes for cars, guitars, boats ,houses....AS long as they are HISTORIC or COLLECTIBLE!
Something is only original once.
Marc, if it looks convincing to your eye, then it's probably original. The only sure way to tell is to have a detailed, itemized history of the guitar backed up with reciepts. You have plenty of experience with vintage instruments, so you should be able to judge as well as most anyone & far better than the average player who only dabbles in collecting.
As I see it, if a PRO quality(ie:undistinguishable) refin has been done the guitar should be worth MORE than if it was left in rough condition, if indeed it ever was in rough shape.
A proper refin costs a good deal of money & should be reflected in the increased value of the end result.
Anything else is insulting to the craftsman who put so much time & effort into reproducing a factory finish, which we all know is VERY difficult.
Needless to say that I don't agree with the way "vintage" issues are presented currently. 20 years ago none of this mattered. The vintage craze seems to be dreamed up by some self serving types who wanted to create a market where none existed before, & we all bought into it.
For example: I recently bought an '81 4080 for $3362 US plus &200 shipping, plus &700 taxes & fees, while the fellow I bought it from paid 1/5 of that price in '86. WHY? I bought it because I've wanted one since I first saw one (around '81 oddly enough).
I'm not saying that these old rare guitars aren't worth what people are paying for them, just that there are a lot of misplaced priorities involved.
DISCLAIMER: this is merely my opinion & I realize I will probably have to wear full riot gear when I leave the house from now on
Please don't anyone take offense...none is intended, I'm just trying to offer another point of view to the discussion.
BTW, I think it's a beautiful bass. I'd love to be able to try one some day.
As I see it, if a PRO quality(ie:undistinguishable) refin has been done the guitar should be worth MORE than if it was left in rough condition, if indeed it ever was in rough shape.
A proper refin costs a good deal of money & should be reflected in the increased value of the end result.
Anything else is insulting to the craftsman who put so much time & effort into reproducing a factory finish, which we all know is VERY difficult.
Needless to say that I don't agree with the way "vintage" issues are presented currently. 20 years ago none of this mattered. The vintage craze seems to be dreamed up by some self serving types who wanted to create a market where none existed before, & we all bought into it.
For example: I recently bought an '81 4080 for $3362 US plus &200 shipping, plus &700 taxes & fees, while the fellow I bought it from paid 1/5 of that price in '86. WHY? I bought it because I've wanted one since I first saw one (around '81 oddly enough).
I'm not saying that these old rare guitars aren't worth what people are paying for them, just that there are a lot of misplaced priorities involved.
DISCLAIMER: this is merely my opinion & I realize I will probably have to wear full riot gear when I leave the house from now on
Please don't anyone take offense...none is intended, I'm just trying to offer another point of view to the discussion.
BTW, I think it's a beautiful bass. I'd love to be able to try one some day.
Plus five minus five!
Marc, I've got a 67 4005 and I'll be happy to send you pics if you want...or send pics to be posted here...my edress is [email protected]..
As far as the vintage/collectable/refinish discussion goes...I agree with Paul at least on a few points...I remember trying to use the Vintage Guitar buyers guide to judge the worth of a few instruments and always noticed that the very same dealers (who were the people that submitted the value estimates to the VG)..that were saying that bass x was worth only $500 in excellent shape were SELLING bass x for $1200. It just didn't seem right.
As far as the vintage/collectable/refinish discussion goes...I agree with Paul at least on a few points...I remember trying to use the Vintage Guitar buyers guide to judge the worth of a few instruments and always noticed that the very same dealers (who were the people that submitted the value estimates to the VG)..that were saying that bass x was worth only $500 in excellent shape were SELLING bass x for $1200. It just didn't seem right.
I've always used a guide as just that, a guide. Since most of us know about the prices Rickenbackers are selling for, I think we all agree, most of the collectible ones are listed quite a bit low,while IMO, the more common mid 70s thru 90's are listed just a drop high.
There's always going to be conflict when the source you are going to for your information stands to gain from what they tell you.
Either way, I purchased a 61 P-bass and this 67 4005 as investments. The P-Bass to me is solid, as all the folks I show it to drool and no one questions that it is anything but all original. It plays and sounds incredible.
Unfortunately, the questions that came up surrounding the 4005 make me uncomfortable holding it as an investment. Hopefully, that will change with time.
There's always going to be conflict when the source you are going to for your information stands to gain from what they tell you.
Either way, I purchased a 61 P-bass and this 67 4005 as investments. The P-Bass to me is solid, as all the folks I show it to drool and no one questions that it is anything but all original. It plays and sounds incredible.
Unfortunately, the questions that came up surrounding the 4005 make me uncomfortable holding it as an investment. Hopefully, that will change with time.
" It's not where you are, it's who you're with.".
There are many folks who know more than me, but my $0.02: If there is overspray in the soundhole it has been refinished or had the finish touched up...
Also, on the pictures you have posted, the control cavity looks like it has paint on some of the edges and not others. I can't say I've opened up a ton of Rics, but that looks odd... Certainly if the bass spent most of its life in the studio?
If, as you've mentioned, this is an investment instrument, I would worry - there is some likelyhood that the overspray will be an issue when you sell it...
Also, on the pictures you have posted, the control cavity looks like it has paint on some of the edges and not others. I can't say I've opened up a ton of Rics, but that looks odd... Certainly if the bass spent most of its life in the studio?
If, as you've mentioned, this is an investment instrument, I would worry - there is some likelyhood that the overspray will be an issue when you sell it...
I believe we've already established that there are original paint jobs with overspray in the soundhole.
I'll take another look in the control cavity, but the lighting is bad on the photos I took.
My feeling is that the finish is original but, the situation as a whole bothers me. I waiver back and forth on holding or selling.
I'll take another look in the control cavity, but the lighting is bad on the photos I took.
My feeling is that the finish is original but, the situation as a whole bothers me. I waiver back and forth on holding or selling.
" It's not where you are, it's who you're with.".
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jingle_jangle
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