John says Fabs 'sidemen for Paul'

[chingnchime]

The Unsuited Beatles. What a concept. I like it!

[studiotwosession]

I've got tix to see Donovan in a similarly small NYC venue next week. His book comes out Tuesday and he's going to do an acoustic set along with a book signing at the Border's store in Time Warner Center. Speaking of him being in fine voice and playing shape, I'm pals with the guys who chose his Happiness Runs for the Delta ads that have been running of late. Because of some rather typical publishing hurdles, Donovan re-recorded the song in Greece last Dec. It is almost impossible to tell the difference between it and the version recorded in 66 o 67, even though this time one of the backup singers was not Gram Nash.

[studiotwosession]

>>They were all cranky and tired, not in their usual environment<< As per the Let It Be incident, Lennon, I believe it was, remarked at one time that there was an argument at every Beatles recording session, every rehearsal, you name it, going back to the Liverpool days, which as many know if rather A typical of being in a band that does its own material. Also, as someone else said, there were actually lots of good times during the making of Let It Be, even if there weren't lots of great tunes. Only the edited version, which like news programs has a bent towards negativity, is the one that, fabs included, seem to remember. Had they had better songs perhaps the memories would have been better (not that I'm incapable of digging I Dig A Pony. Actually, I still belive Don't Let Me Down has the best middle 8 Lepper ever penned.)

[beefandbones]

It's never that easy to sum up roles in a band. However... I would argue that Paul was John's 'sideman' (ie, in a musically supportive role) *far* more often than John supported Paul.

Paul was really very generous and enthusiastic in contributing his musical ideas to John's songs - perhaps overly enthusiastic at times. The great bassline on Rain, the tape loops on Tomorrow Never Knows, the mellotron on Strawberry Fields, the keyboard part on Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, the Come Together riff, the entire Ballad of John and Yoko single...

Actually the BOJ&Y single is a great example - during a period when John openly mocked most of Paul's songs - even the good ones! - Paul assisted John in the recording of his new song, and even consented to it being released urgently as the new Beatles single. It's especially remarkable that Let It Be (the song) was basically finished and easily pressed. But LIB had to wait a year to top the charts...

Personally, I think one of Paul's most overlooked qualities was his ability and willingness to use his talents in support of the others. I wouldn't say the reverse was true.

[revolver323]

Here's a test, boys and girls:
1. Have you nearly had a fistfight because someone in the band hated a song someone else wanted to do, or had written?
2. Has a guitar player told you what he wanted you to play and you, being the bassist, told him to sod off?
3. Have you been hit in the back of the head by a drumstick thrown by the drummer because he thought you were playing too loud?
4. Ever come offstage and pounce on the organ player because he couldn't tell the difference between minor and major chords for the umpteenth time?
5. Ever sit around for an hour in the studio because the drummer got tired of waiting for the guitarist to get the perfect solo and went to Macdonalds?
6. Ever have to step between the singer and the bassist because the singer found the bassist in the van with his main squeeze during the break?
If you've answered yes to even one of these questions, you've been in a band, and you know that what happened in the Beatles happens in all bands.
Sidemen for Paul? Sure. Sometimes. And as Ethan pointed out above, apparently John didn't mind Paul's being a sideman for him on "The Ballad of John and Yoko."

[atomic_punk]

It happens in all bands.
I know I was in a band where the singer brought in a new song she was working on, and everyone else in the band thought it was a load of ****, but I was the one who said it. Everyone else was THINKING it.

So it's either, work it into something better, or just say it sucks and I won't play it. We usually did A, but B happened too.
Sometimes you just play it and hate it.

I was usually the guy coming up with the bass part that was better than the songwriter imagined it, so that's not a bad thing, but yes, like Dave said, stuff happens when people are put in combustible situations. How you handle it is the key.

[chingnchime]

Some excellent perspectives, gentlemen.

[studiotwosession]

The difference between Beatles being sidemen for each other as opposed to other sidemen playing that role for a specific Beatle was, a Beatle as a sideman always said what he thought and contributed as many ideas as allowed whereas a sideman for a Beatle was just making a paycheck and did whatever was possible to stay employed, which of course in many cases probably meant not only not contributing ideas and doing what one was told but having to tolerate a musically challenged (and most likely often obnoxious) member of the band that was only there because she was sleeping with said Beatle.

[britye]

Some where I read or heard maybe here in the forum that the Beatles were 4 frontmen, which set them apart from other bands

[chingnchime]

Hmmm...charismatic, yes, but each a frontman? Not in my views. If anything,the sum was so very much more than its parts. I didn't used to notice, but nowadays when watching live Beatle footage, i am somewhat tickled at their complete lack of an 'act'. Paul sometimes seemed a bit uncomfortable announcing the songs, or perhaps that's just his way of not appearing big-headed. Of course, he's completely comfortable now.

[revolver323]

I had the pleasure years ago of talking with Jason Falkner, who plays on the current Macca album, and who was a co-founder of The Grays, an L.A. based band that put out one CD (and a very good, Beatle-influenced one) in the mid-90s. There were three singer/songwriter/multi-instrumentalists in that band -- Falkner, Jon Brion (of Aimee Mann's band) and Buddy Judge. I asked Jason what is was like to try to work in band with so many writers, and he summed it up perfectly: "It was like dealing with three fascist states."

[atomic_punk]

One great thing about the Beatles is that every member had a personality, and a following, and it was "John, Paul, George and Ringo". Ask anyone to name the Beatles and almost everytime it will be in that order. They all sang a little bit, they all played, they all had their songs on LP's, (ok, so it took till the White Album for Ringo, but you get my drift). They dressed alike, had similar haircuts, basically a 4-person group without the PERSONA of a John Lennon and the Beatles name. They were "The Beatles."

[studiotwosession]

>>They were "The Beatles."<< All great bands are like this (the sum of their parts), whether they have a name like "the Beatles" or "The Elton John Band," or "Bob Dylan" (i.e. when he was playing with what became "the Band" in '66,) Because having a great tune is only half what it takes to make a great recording. The greatest bands can sometimes even make great recordings out of mediocre tunes, just as mediocre bands can never make more than a mediocre recording even with a great song in hand. Thus Elton 71-75, early Elvis, Costello and others get more credit than they're due (call it the frontman or singer syndrome) They really get credit due their bands, which turned in 75 percent or more of the performances. As far as the Beatles all singing, well that's where rock fans have been cheated since the early 80s. The bar has been lowered to the floor. The Beatles had four guys, four singers. The Who had four guys, three singers. The Beach Boys had five guys, five singers. Cream three guys, two singers (both could sing lead) Tom Petty had five guys, three singers. The Band, five guys, four singers. The Police, three guys, three singers ('til they got cheesy and went Vegas with chick backup singers.) The Elton John Band had four guys, four singers. Now you're lucky if you get one guy who can carry a tune (I was laughing at that guy in the Strokes who ONLY plays rhythm guitar.) Forget harmonies. Who lowered it? Nirvanva, U2, you name it. In the old days, you didn't show up for a bar band gig unless you could sing backup or were the best player at your instrument in your state.

[jojo99]

Interesting observation on the current state of harmonies... maybe producers prefer using harmonizing equipment on the lead singer just to expedite matters?Getting harmonies down tight can take lots of rehersal.My feeling is that anyone standing on stage with a guitar should be doing something with their voice also, even if it's deeply buried in the mix. So I volunteered to sing backup in my band... the leader actually laughed at my attempts, so back into the shadows I slunk. He later said he wants someone who WANTS to sing, not someone who merely volunteers to sing. Fair enough. He also noted it's very difficult in general for bassists to sing while they play...any truth to this, or was he just sparing my feelings? LOL

[winston]

Jo every one who sings for a living has to take a stab at it at one point in their life. Your singer is either a big headed bugger who is not into making the band better or insensitive. You tell me which it is?

Personally if I were him I would be happy that you were interested in singing as well as playing bass and I would do everything I could to make your contribution positive.

If in fact it was determined that you are incapable of singing then I take you aside and let you know that you have trouble carrying a tune and playing bass without going off pitch.

There is no need to make someone feel small or inconsequential.

BTW all of my bass players sang. Some better than others but they all did a good job at both.