George Plaing Roll Over Bethoven on Anthology DVD

kkm · Post by **kkm** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:49 pm

He's playing a 360 that sounds like a 6 string. He's playing all the solo fills with it. I didnt know he had a 6 string 360?

Am I correct?

stuart · Post by **stuart** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:36 pm

I am pretty sure he used the famous 360/12 on this one. I can't remember exactly where on the Anthology this is shown, but can you remind me? I think it's late on Chapter 2 of DVD 1, but I'm not sure.

Anyways, George did play the 360/12 in concert on some songs that did not have the 12 on the original recording. One example of this is the opening of the Hollywood Bowl concert in 1964. George is playing the 360/12 on 'Twist & Shout' and it sounds great, but this was obviously not used on the recording you can hear on the 'Please Please Me' album.

randyz · Post by **randyz** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:04 am

Mike: I'm at work right now, so I don't have access to my Beatles info. It's true that George did sometimes play the 12-string live on songs that used a 6-string in the studio. I'm also aware of several television performances that used performances taped live in advance and then mimed for the audience. It could be that you're seeing him mime with the 360/12 on a song recorded in advance using a Gretsch. I'm not aware of George ever owning a 360/6.

beatcomber · Post by **beatcomber** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 4:19 am

George never played a 360 during the Beatle years. His only Rics were a '62 425, a '63 360/12 and a '65 or '66 360/12.

What you probably saw on Anthology was a clip from "Around the Beatles," where they lipsinc'd to a re-recording of "Roll Over Beethoven" (amongst others). George was playing his first 360/12.

kkm · Post by **kkm** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:00 am

yeah, if he lipsinc'd it that would make alot of sense because those fills dont sound anything like a 12 string!

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:32 am

I always thought that was a Gretsch on the recording...

randyz · Post by **randyz** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:53 am

Paul: It was almost certainly a Gretsch Country Gent on the studio recording of 'Roll Over Beethoven'. He may also have been playing a Gretsch when they recorded special recordings for 'Around The Beatles'. During the actual taping in front of a live audience, George mimed using his 360/12 regardless of whether it was a track he recorded with the Gretsch or the Rick. I suppose they felt silly enough without bother to swap guitars too!

britye · Post by **britye** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:37 pm

When they lip sycn'd or mimed, did they actually play their guitars unamped? It would seem to me you can't really fake playing a guitar when playing for a live audience. To make it seem real you'd have to play note for note chord for chord when miming to give the appearance of a live show.

randyz · Post by **randyz** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:41 pm

Yep. It was common practice during the 1960's to pre-record a live soundtrack and then mime along with the recording in front of a studio audience. Some bands were better at it than others. Syd Barrett (of Pink Floyd) once stared into the camera without 'playing' his guitar or moving lips on American Bandstand. Watch Pete Townshend 'playing' his guitar during their legendary appearance on the Smothers Brothers Show. It's a specially recorded performance, but Pete's timing is way off and the sounds of him smashing his guitar don't match what's happening visually. Nobody is trying to fool the studio audience. They see all the mistakes and multiple takes, before the tape is edited for broadcast.

danbind · Post by **danbind** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 5:34 am

A friend went to see "The David Letterman Show" on a recent trip to New York. Moby was the musical guest, and there were a couple of flubs during the song segment. Dave came over to the group afterwards to shake hands and such, said goodnight to the audience, then left. Moby & his band THEN did another (two?) take of their song while most of the audience was filing out. In the hotel later that night, my friend noticed that they had edited in the second take to the broadcast, then put in Dave's obligatory handshake from the first take.

Ever since I heard this story, I've noticed this type of cutting quite a bit on the late-night talk shows. Not necessarily lip-syncing (AFAIK), but making sure to look good on the idiot box.

randyz · Post by **randyz** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 6:06 am

Dan: I've been disappointed by several musical performances on the Letterman Show. I clearly remember seeing one of my musical heroes, Robyn Hitchcock, making an appearance in '88 or '89. Even though they only allowed him to play one number, they didn't even give him time to play it. He started the song 'Madonna Of The Wasps', then his Telecaster promptly dropped out, he smiled and pretended to ignore it (letting the lead guitarist takeover) and about halfway through a 3:00 minute song, the credits started rolling and then they cutoff the ending. Obviously the Letterman Show cared enough to help Moby out, but poor Robyn got screwed!

britye · Post by **britye** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:40 am

My next question is why fake it? Since you have to go through the motions anyway you'd may as well do it live? What was the thinking behind the decisions to do mimed performances. I don't get it. *Unless it's to prevent a less then best performance imo

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 7:47 am

At least two very good reasons, the second of which you mention above.

The overriding reason, in my mind, is logistics, related to budgets of individual shows.

To cart a full range of equipment and spares, employ (often union) personnel to set up and break down, time for rehearsals (often nonexistent), and related factors, when a group gets 3 minutes or less "on stage", makes it very difficult and expensive to do a "real" song. The people watching the show in those days were not as media-savvy as they are now. In most cases, just seeing the artists in person was sufficient for those attending, and seeing them on TV was enough for viewer/fans.

Big budget shows like Ed Sullivan and big exposure shows like the daily/nightly talk shows, operated differently, with the artists' labels usually picking up the tab for the latter and part of the tab for the former.

randyz · Post by **randyz** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:13 am

I just thought of another famous mime by a sixties band. Have you ever watched the Rolling Stones on Ed Sullivan doing 'Paint It Black'? Keith is disinterestedly 'playing' his black Les Paul while Brian Jones sits cross-legged 'playing' a sitar with his right hand wrapped in bandages! I think he punched a dressing room wall a few days earlier and hurt his hand...

randyz · Post by **randyz** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 8:24 am

Another Anglophile Angle: British musicians unions required a certain percentage of TV and radio performances to be recorded live (so as to protect musicians' jobs). That's why bands like the Beatles, Rolling Stones, Kinks, etc bothered recording special BBC radio sessions for very little money. They wanted radio play, and these taped sessions could be played over and over without the strict limits set on records.