#1 String sounds like a sitar + 660 tuners problem

bruceglaser · Post by **bruceglaser** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:56 pm

I posted these questions on the RIC forum several days ago but have had no replies. Any help here?

2 Problems...

1. I pulled out my 370/6 to check the neck adjustments and tuning and noticed that the #1 string sounds like a sitar when played unplugged. You do not notice it when amplified. Nut or saddle problem, I'm guessing. Strings are RIC std. spec. Suggestions?

2. Several of my 660/12 machine heads will not hold the string in tune. Current strings are Pyramids and have the appropriate number of windings around the posts. I don't remember having this problem with the Rick strings that came on it. When you tune to pitch you can actually hear the string going flat as it rings. I think I read somewhere that these tuners are prone to slippage. Are the Pyramids exacerbating the tuners problem? What can be done to correct this? I do not want to modify the guitar for different tuners.

Thanks in advance for the help.

scott_s · Post by **scott_s** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 8:33 pm

1. If the sitar sound is only for the open string, the nut slot probably needs attention: http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/GenSetup/Nuts/nuts3.html

2. How to restring properly: http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/SteelStrings/Stringing/ststringing2.html

How new are your strings? Brand-new strings need a little stretching at first. Hope this helps.

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:09 pm

Bruce, have you checked the clearance of the #1 string from all of the frets, and whether it buzzes when it is fretted? If it buzzes on every fret, it could be a nut problem as Scott suggests, or it could be a bridge saddle problem. In my experience, one other source of buzz could be the saddle spring being loose.

I have not had any problem with the Schaller vintage-style tuners. When you say "approriate number" of windings, how many turns are you referring to? I have noticed that Pyramids take a little time to settle in compared to some other brands I have used, so maybe you should "pre-stretch" them by tuning them slightly sharp for a few days and seeing whether that will help.

bruceglaser · Post by **bruceglaser** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:37 pm

Thanks for the replies. On the 370/6, strings are about a month old, std. Rick strings. The E string doesn't buzz like a vibration, it has a sitar like drone overtone. Open string only, not when fretted. Neck is straight, action is low, but not too low. Maybe it's a bad string, I'll change it and see if it cures the problem.

Regarding the 660/12, I wrap the first winding over the string end and then wrap 4-5 under the string end on all strings. I stretch the new strings a few times and tune to pitch. Strings are about a month old. As I said, you can actually hear the string go flat as it's tuned to pitch. The tuners seem to be slipping. I swear I read about this problem here or on another board. I'lll check the archives.

bruceglaser · Post by **bruceglaser** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:00 pm

I found this in the archives related to 360/v64 tuners which are also RIC Deluxe . It's from John Hall:

Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 12:43 pm:
Welcome to the world of vintage replicas.

"Let's not order a 1965 VW bug replica and expect it to drive like a 2006 Turbo bug! It is possible that these are the older Schaller replicas that are nowhere near as tight as the current Gotoh-made replicas (which are far better than the original Klusons)."

Is there a way to tell if my tuners are Gotoh or Schaller? The guitar is a 2000

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:17 pm

If I remember correctly, the Schallers (used on earlier guitars, I think) have the Schaller script "S" on the back with the double lines, and the Gotohs have "RIC Deluxe" on the back with the double lines.

winston · Post by **winston** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 9:05 pm

I have arrived at this thread a bit late. However, assuming it is as you say an open string drone and all other potentials have been eliminated; the remedy would be to change the angle on cut of the nut on that string back and down to towards the headstock. That should eliminate your sitar effect problem.

bruceglaser · Post by **bruceglaser** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:13 am

Thanks for all the advise. When I change the string I'll check the nut slot. I'd be a little surprised if that is the problem, I've had this guitar since it was new (99), never heard this before I changed the strings last month and I play unplugged at home frequently.

Here's something interesting, I plucked the string at the first fret - no drone at all no matter how hard I pluck. Do it at the bridge end and I get "Within You, Without You".

winston · Post by **winston** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:20 am

There may be a spring (behind the bridge saddle) on the E string that is vibrating. Check that before anything else. Sometimes when these springs are over compressed the lose some of their "memory" and they become loose on the spring.

paulv63 · Post by **paulv63** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:31 am

Sounds like a high fret area. I would check the neck level first before changing anything.

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:34 am

Bruce: Can you hear the "sitar sound" when plugged in or is this only heard acoustically?

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:49 am

Bruce, you didn't get a response at our forum because of a flaw that didn't allow replies to message subjects beginning with "#". We're fixing that now.

My best guess would be a slightly lifted first fret in this area or a nut slot that's too low. There really isn't much else that could cause this.

As far as the keys are concerned, don't forget the Pyramids are extremely high tension strings. There's three different keys sets that have been used, two Schallers and more recently, Gotohs. The Schaller diecast key has a tiny "S" engraved on it and is the best one of the lot although a bit heavier. The other two types, both with sheet metal covers, are almost indistinguishable but the Gotoh version rarely slip while the Schallers can under high tension.

bruceglaser · Post by **bruceglaser** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 11:21 am

Thanks again for all the suggestions/ comments.

On the 370, the sound is only produced unplugged. The saddle spring is not loose. The bridge corner screws and the cover are all tight. I put a 24" steel straightedge along the neck on the high E side and it's as dead flat as I can get it, no sign of a raised fret either. Since it didn't sound like this before I changed the strings, that will still be the first thing I try. Someone suggested that I might have put a kink in the string. I can't see anything but that could also be a cause.

On the 660/12, the tuners do not have the Schaller S. I didn't think of the tension as a cause but it's logical. The guitar had RIC strings on it until last month when I put the flats on. Maybe another brand of flats would be better. I'll have to see if T-I make a set.

Mr. Hall - as a footnote to your comment about the # sign in posts, your system would not allow me to use Pyramid. It replaced the name with Tetrahedrons which I thought was pretty funny, if annoying. Is this the new RIC endorsed brand of flats?

bill_yantz · Post by **bill_yantz** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:10 am

Bruce, I had a similar experience with sitar sounding strings. I hate to say this, but in my case it was pyramid strings, my favorites along with TIs. I had bad strings in 3 or 4 sets that all sounded like the "sitar" problem. I checked everything first but to no avail. I changed the string and it went away. I tried re-installing the same str4ing on a different guitar and it produced the same sound. Out of these sets, it was the mostly the G-string and one other. I emailed the Pryramid distributor a few times and never got an answer back. I am not sure why this happenmd but I will say that one set was mail-ordered while the others were bought locally. The ones bought locally were old and had been in their stock for at least a year or two. When I installed them I cleaned them with naptha as they were extemely dirty. I don't know if its a manufacturer's defect or not but it was disappointing to say the least.

I would not hesitate to buy Pyramids again. Bad strings do pop-up from time-to-time.

I live in Nashville and last week I tried to find a 12-string set to buy but could only find one set of D'addarrio 10s. I didn't want those so I opted to buy two sets of Chromes (11s) and made my own set with only one additional string needed, an 11. I am pleasantly surprised at how good it turned out. BTW, the 11 gauge along with the stiffness of the Chromes were good because I tune down. I would recommend 10s if you don't.