Please HELP me pick a new PA system!

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:50 pm

Hi all... my little 4-member rock'n'roll band plays moldy oldies (vintage rock we like to call it) and blues and some R+B (early Stones, Elvis, Beatles, various originals, etc etc). Until now we've been using a little PA (strictly for vocals as the instruments go through their own amps), and we no feel that its time to take a step forward quality-wise.

Size and portability are an issue.... high volume is not so much of an issue as we typically play small clubs / bars etc.... quality at a reasonable price (around $2000 max) is what we're after.

Can you help me decide what to get?

Thanks in advance for your expertise! OK, here goes.....

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:51 pm

What we started with:

Yamaha EMX68S 6-Channel Powered Mixer
and
Yamaha S115IV, Club Series IV - 15" speakers (weight = 61 lbs each)

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 8:52 pm

What we went to:

We substitued BOSE 802's for the Yamaha speakers. The BOSE 802 is a great
speaker. Using these speakers instead of the Yamaha 15 inchers had a
noticeable improvement in sound clarity.

We place them high and in back of the band (either side of the drummer)
so that they act as PA speakers AND band monitors ......
(yes, I know this sounds a bit amaturish, but it has worked pretty well).

These are smaller and lighter than the 61 lb Yamaha 15, so the transport/setup was easy.

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:03 pm

What I'm considering doing:

Getting a better quality mixer and main speakers and using the Bose 802's as
side-fill monitors.

The advice I get from my local (respected) music store is that the best way for
us to get an immediate noticeable improvement in PA sound at a reasonable
price is NOT to get another powered mixer and passive speakers, but
POWERED SPEAKERS AND A PASSIVE MIXER. The logic (so I hear) goes like this:
By definition, a powered mixer is designed to be able to accomodate a wide range
of speakers.... it tries to be all things to all speakers. But an active speaker has amp(s)
specifically designed for THAT speaker. A bi-amped active speaker is even better
because it has one amp for the main and one for the horn, both specifically made for
that output.

He recommended:

Mackie CFX12.mkII passive mixer (with digital effects) and Mackie SRM450 powered speakers (12" main + horn).
I can get this whole package for under $2000 (new).

info on the Mackie mixer and speakers:

Mackie CFX12.mkII Mixer
http://www.mackie.com/products/cfx12mkii/

The Mackie SRM450 Powered Monitor
http://www.mackie.com/products/srm450/

.... our bass player thinks that the speakers look weird (he grew up on Marshall stacks). Personally I think they look pretty neat... sort of agressive. They are a bit smaller in size that the ole Yamaha 15" speakers and are a full 10 lbs lighter each.

ONE NOTE: This setup's passive monitor would mean that we'd need to put a power amp between the Mackie mixer and the Bose 802 side-fills. This shouldn't be too much of a hastle (I hope).

"The Nightshades" thank you for your suggestions.

http://nightshadeshawaii.tripod.com/

soundmasterg · Post by **soundmasterg** » Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:46 pm

Those Mackie SRM450 powered speakers (12" main + horn) sound very nice. A friend of mine uses one for DJ stuff, but I've used it for band practice a couple times myself, and they really sound good. In an A/B test, they sound better than the JBL one with a 15, and they are lighter too.

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:01 pm

Thanks Greg.... Interestingly the sound our bass tried that got him interested in ugrading ours involved JBL 15's. This is good news.

======= Hey youz guys and gals out there ... I know some of you sound experts must have an opinion or two. Any thoughts?... suggestions? Are powered speakers with a passive mixer the way to go?

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:04 am

Kent, I have had a tiny bit of experience with the Mackie speakers & they sound very good indeed. The only two comments that I would make, is first of all, get the 15" versions. They will be far more adaptable should you need to mic a Kick drum, or other lo frequency items. The 12's just wont take that sort of thing & you would end up with a 'boxy' lower end. There would come a time when you would be REALLY thankful that you bought the 15's. Because of their greater frequency response, everything will sound more open & smoother.

Secondly....I had a friend who ran a small PA hire company & he used the Mackie 15's. He ended up selling them because they were just too heavy & he went the conventional route of passive speakers & power amps. One day, he'd just had enough.

Personaly, I would not buy powered speakers (or a powered desk). The weight on the stands & potential falling would bother me (great if fixed, but for touring?). There is a degree of inflexibility with a powered speaker (or mixer) & I like to have seperate power amps for PA & monitor so that you can mix & match should problems occur. Seperates also allows you to upgrade components one at a time to suit your particular circumstances.

Having said that, that is just my feeling, but there is no doubt that the Mackie speakers are superb & no reason at all that you shouldn't go down this road....get the 15's though!

kcole4001 · Post by **kcole4001** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:36 am

My band is using the Mackie 16 channel board & it's awesome. You gotta use a compressor if you're used to, say, a Peavey mixer since when the Mackie is clipping, it's REALLY clipping!
We blew out both horns on our tops (SP2's) one day when the singer was messing with the board & the guitar channel spiked.

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:21 am

thanks!

Tony... good point about the 15's.... but as you say, the weight of those things starts to make you question the wisdom of powered speakers to begin with. For right now I dont see us miking drums or anything amps, but what do I know?... we could get to that point I guess.

Kevin... high volume has never been what we're about (small clubs and all that). Actually, one of the challenges we faced a couple of years ago was getting the volume down. It started when we got some gigs at the local yacht clubs. Starting at around 7:30, there were people still eating dinner. We were forced to quickly come up with a "super quiet set" ... and as it turned out it was the best thing that ever happened to us as a band.

kcole4001 · Post by **kcole4001** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:41 am

Our problem was an accident. Had a bad mic cord & the singer had cranked up the gain on the channel, but forgot to turn it back down. New cord connected, strum a chord, & poof! No more horns. We weren't playing loud at all & it was only soundcheck in the afternoon.
Just be careful!

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:39 pm

Ah, I see.... were you able to get them fixed?

icabod · Post by **icabod** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:52 am

Kent; Like Tony, I would go the 15 route. DB makes a powered 15 that blew me away when I installed them in a little club with same mackie mixer, and miced up a band and they sounded great and they took the kik and bass. I've got a 10,000 watt sound rig and in the two bands I play in, we use the mackie powered 12's and we set them up slightly behind us as well as point them in a little, works great, and I don't have to dig into my bigger stuff except for some mics, also the mackie 12's will take some kik, but the DB 15's really took the kik, but go the 15 way, you won't add that much more weight, I think they were around 45 lbs apiece, my old soundcraft console tips 300lbs in its case...hope it helps, also better to have more power than less as things will stay cleaner

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:52 pm

Yowza!... I appreciate what you're saying about getting a 15", but the smallest 15" powered speaker that Mackie makes is the SA1521z... and it weighs TWICE AS MUCH as the SRM450. For me, schlepping two 100 lb speakers around to gigs is out of the question. The 61 lb Yamaha Club IV's (which we used to use) were plenty.

SRM450
26"high x 15.4"wide x 14.8"dp
51 lbs

SA1521z
32"high x 19.1"wide x 18.8"dp
101 lbs

I think we're going to take it one step at a time and running out to buy a new $2000 system (as much as I'd love to) is probably not a good first step for our limited budget. We strongly suspect that our current mixer is not fully functional. I'm thinking of renting a decent mixer and doing a side-by-side mixer comparrison using our old Yamaha Club IV 15" speakers.

Thanks....I'll let you know how it goes.

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 1:06 pm

Richard, I see the dB Technologies site:

http://www.rmcaudio.com/db-technologies/db-technologies.htm

And they apparently have these "Active Bi-Amp Speakers"...

215M: 27.5" x 15.75" x 12.6" - 35.28 lbs.
415M: 27.5" x 15.75" x 12.6" - 44.1 lbs.

WOW! Why so light???

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:48 pm

wow, those dB's are sure expensive:

215M monitor Price: $646.00
415M monitor Price: $736.00

.... each.