EL34's with good low end?

lowendbob · Post by **lowendbob** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 3:13 pm

I have read the reviews about JJ's having some good low end, so I bought a quad for my Jolida 202B, and I am not very satisfied. I am using Klipsch KG-4's and these are bright sounding speakers but they have a passive radiator for added bass response, and I still can't get the kind of bass output I'm looking for.
Any suggestions on a tube replacement?

jps · Post by **jps** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:00 pm

What kind of bass output are you seeking? Most tube amps for stereos may not give you deep extended bottom end if that is what you crave!

lowendbob · Post by **lowendbob** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:59 pm

Jeff, I'm seeking earth shaking, glass breaking bottom end, but what I'm getting is practically nothing.
This was my first venture into tube audio about 3 months ago, and I like the warm smooth sound I get from tubes, but I am little disappointed in the bass. That was the primary reason I bought the Klipsch speakers with the passive 12" radiators.
My Jolida amp.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:08 pm

I'm by no means an expert on the difference between a tube home stereo setup (nice amp! I'm envious!) and an SVT, but every time I've tried to play through anything but a dedicated musical instrument amp and speakers, I get thin sound...

Don't you have an SVT and an 8-10 cab lying around, Lowend?

jps · Post by **jps** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:37 pm

The problem with using tube amps for stereo reproduction is that the damping factor is quite low, which generally produces a somewhat mushy, uncontrolled bass due to the low impedance of speakers used in stereo systems. You want an amp with very high damping factor (DF) to properly control the woofers. Another thing is that because of the low DF and the wide impedance swings that a speaker goes through throughout the frequency range, especially in the bass range, the frequency response is never flat, thereby giving the oft mentioned "euphonic tube sound". Solid state (SS) amps usually have very high DFs, therefore producing deep extended controlled bass. If you can, try to borrow a good SS amp, such as Krell, Mark Levinson, Classe Audio, you get the idea, and compare them to the Jolida.

I have Aragon components in my stereo system and I have compared them to some tube gear with favorable results, leaning towards the Aragons. A very enlightening comparison was my Aragon 24K preamp vs. an Audio Research SP-9. It turned out that the SP-9 sounded harsh and more brittle compared to the 24K, showing me the fallacy in the tube vs. SS sound debate; it all depends on the particular design of an individual piece of equipment.

Another thing you may want to consider is getting a good subwoofer (I prefer two for better stereo imaging) and cross-over the lows to a SS amp around 40-50 Hz, thereby getting the best of both worlds, the major portion of the sound will go through the Jolida, with just the very bottom end going into the SS amps and subwoofer/s. I have read excellent reviews on the various Bag End Infrasub systems, and my brother recently purchased a Paradigm subwoofer systems that he is raving about.

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:15 pm

Bob, Your problem may be more your speakers, I have never felt that Klipsch speakers were particularly bassy. Any Klipsch speaker I've ever heard including Klipschorns just sounded really loud with a lot of midrange although I would still like a pair.
I use double large Advents (sealed two way speakers with 10" woofers) with an old Marantz 2385, 240 WRMS per channel receiver at 4 ohms and I can shake the house if I want to. I've gotten plenty of bass using old tube Dynaco stereo 70's, they had a nice smooth solid sound. MacIntosh MC-275's are the way to go IMHO if you want a tube power amp 75 WRMS per channel @0.5% distortion, best sounding audio amps I've ever heard.

soundmasterg · Post by **soundmasterg** » Sun Jan 08, 2006 9:38 pm

I need to get my Dynaco Stereo 70 up and running one of these days. Bob, were the ones that you heard stock? I plan to modify mine with an SDS labs power supply board and an EF86/12AU7/EF86 board.

Also, I have a line on a NICE Mac 260, and a NICE Hammond B3 with Leslies....now I just need to get the cash!

ken_j · Post by **ken_j** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:36 am

Bob you may need to bi-amp to get the best of both worlds. Put your tubes on the top and a SS amp such as Crown DC300A ( damping factor greater than 1000)on the bottom. Be prepared to spend big bucks on low capacitance cables and a crossover if you go this route. The Klipsh speakers with the tightest bottom the I have heard are the Cornwall. They are much tighter than the corner horns but most likely don't go no where near as low depending on the room.

In my opinion the 6550 is a better tube for HIFI applications.

lowendbob · Post by **lowendbob** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:29 am

Thanks guys. I think my first approach is to buy the JBL L100's I originally wanted to buy, and try them. If that doesn't work, I may try Jeff's recommendations on a good SS amp.

jnbass · Post by **jnbass** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:32 am

is the amp MISSING bass output or have you heard an identical passage on another system with the same speakers.

audio amps are transparent, musical amps have "tone".

6550 for bass!

lowendbob · Post by **lowendbob** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 8:42 am

Jared, The amp really never had a lot of bass, but it does have some, so therefore I think it is the Klipsch speakers. I had my Advent's hooked up before and there was a little more bass on the same passage, but not really to my taste. The reviews I read about the Klipsch passive radiator really led me to believe that these speakers would resolve my lack of bottom end.

jnbass · Post by **jnbass** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:28 pm

I got them Klipsch La Scallas-no bass until you're 15 feet away!

jps · Post by **jps** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:07 pm

"audio amps are transparent"

Not always.

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Mon Jan 09, 2006 10:01 pm

That amp has to be flat at least down to 20 hz Bob like any good power amp impedance flucuations notwithstanding, it Could possibly be be your pre amp Bob, but I still would bet it is your speakers.
Greg, my Dynacos were stock and had american EL-34's in them: 6CA7's which are a harder tube I've heard, maybe Charlie can shed some light on that for us. I also agree 6550's are great for bass, that's what the MC-275's have, two per side. I had the Dynacos bridged at one time for 70 watts each, they sounded pretty good but sounded better when I used four speakers with each amp separately. I don't think you can beat them for the money.
Some people do use their tube amps for the mid and top and SS for bass like some have suggested but I still say get a tube Mac power amp and you'll be all set, they are reissuing them, a little pricey though, I think about 4000.00. The old large Advents are flat down to 32 hz and are fairly efficient for an acoustic suspension speaker, most need to be refoamed by now by it is a cheap and easy fix. You can also get new woofers from Advent for them, if you like bass and punch those are really tight punchy speakers especially with two on each side. Speakers are by far the most variable component in a stereo system.

lowendbob · Post by **lowendbob** » Tue Jan 31, 2006 7:05 am

Wow, I sold my Klipsch speakers, and just unpacked the holy grail of JBL L100's in absolute mint condition. I heard lots of great things about these speakers and everything I heard is true. By far the best pair of speakers I have owned to date, and finally I get some decent bass response from my Jolida tube amp.
I was beginning to wonder if a tube amp was the best way to go, but now I'm in audio heaven.