Poorly balanced 4001?

hazmat · Post by **hazmat** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:00 pm

So I have this lefty 1978 4001 here that a guy is selling that he lent me to play with to see if I like it. The thing is A LOT heavier than I expected, but it's also way neck heavy. If I have it on my shoulder at a 45 degree angle and let it go, the neck drops down to almost level. Aren't these things supposed to be well-balanced? FWIW, I think it has been completely stripped of the lacquer or whatever they have from the factory. He said it was tung-oiled, but it may have all worn off.

It's a beautiful instrument, but if this is simply what it is, I can't see this being comfortable to play.

Thanks for the input on this.

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:25 pm

That is a bit odd. Can you provide a pic or two? That may help us figure out what is going on. The 4001/3 is normally very well balanced and is never neck-heavy. The long upper horn helps the bass to hang at a naturally upright angle. All I can suggest is to make sure the tuners and fingerboard are original. Take a look under the guard and TRC to check for any non-standard parts.

cheyenne · Post by **cheyenne** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:27 pm

First of all we need pictures.

Sounds like it may have been drilled for, and had the bigger, "Schaller type" tuning keys installed. That alone will cause the neck dive.

I know, I have one.

As far as the finish, Rickenbacker didnt offer tung oil finishes in 1978.

Pictures, Pictures, Pictures. We can help.

hazmat · Post by **hazmat** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 2:55 pm

Here you go, guys. Thanks so much.

You are correct that it has Schaller tuning keys on it. I think the M4S? According to the Hipshot site, 4 of their Ultralites weigh as much as 3 of the M4's, but I'm not sure what the weight difference is between the M4 and M4S. If they are similar, then it doesn't see that it would make that much of a difference.

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:06 pm

Those tuners are probably the cause.

bobcat · Post by **bobcat** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 3:54 pm

Wait, the Schallers that are SMALLER than the stock Ric tuners are heavier than the stock ones?

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:22 pm

Those are the Schallers that are larger than the stock RIC tuners. The patent diameter is significantly larger.

jps · Post by **jps** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:34 pm

Replace the tuners with Hipshot Ultralites with the 11/16" posts, that will very significantly reduce, if not eliminate the neck dive. I used to have those very same keys on my '67 4005WB, which caused quite a bit of neck dive. Since putting the Ultralites on it the bass balances perfectly. As the damage is already done and there are lots of mods on that 4001 the Hipshots are a no brainer. All it requires is one small hole to mount the tuners to the back of the headstock. The Ultralites are available with either the traditional cloverleaf keys or the modern Y keys as shown here:

These are pics of the Ultralite tuner with the cloverleaf keys:

The hole in the headstock is 11/16", the post diameter is 1/2", these tuning keys are excellent with a high tuning ratio for better accuracy and are tension adjustable.

jps · Post by **jps** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:38 pm

Here is a pic of them on my '73 4001:

This is my 4004Cii:

Both of these are the smaller 3/8" post Ultralite tuners that are more like the Schaller M4 tuners. What you currently have are Schaller M4S tuners.

hazmat · Post by **hazmat** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:53 pm

Thanks for the input, guys. Are the Hipshot Ultralites a lot lighter than the M4S?

Here's another problem for me: it's still a very heavy bass. I can't deal with the weight. My Fender Jazz was killing me. Between carrying it around NYC on my back, and then sometimes 2 hours in the studio on my shoulder, I was having all sorts of back and shoulder pain. Moving to a Danelectro, though I hate the neck and don't dig the sound or the looks, made all the pain go away.

I was thinking of having a luthier do what Chris Squire did to his, shaving it down to about 2/3 the weight, but I think that would cost a lot of money, no? Plus it would probably cause neck dive again even with the Ultralites.

I might have to bite the bullet and have a bass custom made for me. I play lefty and have gotten used to the narrower string spacing, which I now can't go back from. Argh.

jps · Post by **jps** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:57 pm

If you want a well balanced, lightweight Rickenbacker, look no further than...

Oh, yeah, the Ultralites are a LOT lighter, you will feel like you took lbs. of the headstaock.

bobcat · Post by **bobcat** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 7:40 pm

I think you have an abnormally heavy Rickenbacker. Seriously, if it feels even close to how your Jazz felt, something is really wrong there . . . I wonder if maybe the SD pickups are heavier than usual . . . you actually might wanna try having the bass shaved down. You shouldn't have to worry about neck dive if you put on the Ultralites; the only way you could really bring back neck dive would be to slice off the body wings, or some equivalent loss of mass. They really are light. Shaving down the bass might be the way to go if you still want to play a Ric (which is definitely something you should do, because they are awesome).

bob_atherton · Post by **bob_atherton** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 2:46 am

I use a well padded wide strap made by Overwater on all my Rics. It comes with a short section that is made of elastic and this takes any pain out of wearing it and, strange it may sound, makes the bass feel lighter. Don’t know how it works , but it does. I am not as young as I used to be (49) , yet play 3 hour gigs with out any problem at all.

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:24 am

I used to have a problem with my old '68 being too heavy ... it hurt my shoulder ... and it is a very light bass ... well I then developed severe rheumatoid arthritis and I couldn't play without bad pain ... the medication helped a little but the side effects were horrible ... So I started taking supplements ... now I am 95% better and I can wear a heavy bass all night long and it is not a problem ...

I recommend that everyone take coral calcium with every meal ... you will be healthier, live longer and feel better ...

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 8:35 am

I think the weight of these basses has a little to do with when it was made. We've talked about this before--that(for some reason) the late 70's basses have a bit more heft to them. My '79 4001LH is one of the heaviest I've ever picked up in the way of Rickenbackers, and the only thing that outweighs it in my stable is the Wal. When I get my other '72 back I'll weigh all four of them and see which one tops out...