4001 compared to 4003 - What Real Improvements?

Vintage, Modern, V & C series, Fretless, Signature & Special Editions

Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4

User avatar
72rick
Member
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:00 am

4001 compared to 4003 - What Real Improvements?

Post by 72rick »

On the Harmony Central user forum, I'm in a discussion regarding someones interest in a Rick 4001 or 4003 and any information that may help with that decision.

The first responder was someone who's owned many Ricks and, based on his experience, has stated that 4001's are nice for collectors but for playing 4003's are better basses than 4001's. He went on to ask, why should someone pay more for a 30+ year old bass when they could buy a new and better improvement of the same design.

I've owned and played Rick's since the early 80's. I've had my 72' 4001(center of pic) since 82' and have owned three different 74' 4001's, my current one being the Walnut(left of pic) and have been in possession of a 81' 4001 for about 11 years.
These three Ricks in the picture all have very distinctly different feels to them. I'd have to say that most newer Ricks that I've played feel closer to the 81' than the earlier ones.

I'm having a hard time accepting the statement that 4003's are actually superior to 4001's.

I'm familiar with the Trussrod upgrade in 4003's but I have not seen if the change in the Trussrod goes beyond adding washers between the adjustment nut and the Blank.
In some of these 4001's I've replaced the Metal Blank with Brass. The need being the adjustment nuts cutting into the blank material and also the Trussrod cutting into the material from the back, both actions reducing the amount of control over Neck Relief you have.

I also know that there were other design changes to provide greater strength and stability to the necks of 4003's, I just don't know what these changes consisted of. Which leads to another issue I have with the supposed 4003 superiority, is that I've never experienced any lack of complete solidity in quality or design of any 4001's I've owned or played.
Any information or constructive feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
(please disregard any non-Ricks in the pic-thanks)
Image
http://www.myspace.com/greenvilleglorylane
Rickenbacker; '72 FireGlo 4001, '81 JetGlo 4001. '90 Alembic Flame-Koa Persuader.
Custom Hand-Made(Self) 4-String Natural Maple Bass.
Ampeg B-15R & B-15E Bass Amp (2-15 All-Tube 100w Stack, both S/N 1)
rickaddict
Senior Member
Posts: 6163
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:46 am

Post by rickaddict »

Welcome, Garet. I have both and like both, but I'd have to say...as much as I like my old 4001s...the 4003 is superior in a few ways:

-The Schaller tuners currently installed on the 4003 are the best RIC has ever used. They are lightweight, smooth, strong and reliable.

-The modern truss rod system(since 1985 or so) is vastly superior to the old. Tighten them 1/8 of a turn and you see instant results. And there are no goof-ball aluminum-block tipping issues.

-The frets on a 4003 are chunkier and made of a harder alloy so they last longer.

-The pickups on a 4003 have higher output.

-There is no .0047 bass-cut cap on the 4003s(I forgot if they were discontinued in the mid '80's or if the 4003 never had them) so the tone out of the bridge pickup is much "fuller."

-The tailpiece on a 4003 was re-designed so that it is much less likely to lift-up the way many on the old 4001s did.

-And the obvious one...the neck on a 4003 is stronger and designed to handle the tension of roundwound strings.

On the other hand...many retro-types prefer the 4001s because:

-They generally have a slimmer neck.

-Some prefer the tone, claiming that the thinner neck resonates better, or that they like the bass cut cap in the circuit.

-Aesthetic reasons(there have been many slight changes to the appearance of the 4003 over the years that some 4001 owners have a hard time with).


I hope this helps. Nice collection, BTW!
Play what you love, love what you play!
jwr2

Post by jwr2 »

the old 4001 bass was stressed beyond its design specs just by stringing it with rotosound strings ... and if the truss rods were adjusted improperly the fret board would pop off ...

the 4003 has truss rods that work like pretty much every other bass in the world now ... and under the fretboard the is a piece of wood laminated in a different direction that added strength ... the pickups are hotter and fuller ... a passive 4003 is louder and fuller than many active basses ...

basically the 4003 is an updated 4001 ... they corrected some flaws in the old design ...

and there is no way an 74 or later 4001 is worth as much as a new 4003 ...
rickaddict
Senior Member
Posts: 6163
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:46 am

Post by rickaddict »

Ah, but those full-width inlays!

AAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

(Homer Simpson drooling voice.)
Play what you love, love what you play!
alanz
Intermediate Member
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:58 pm
Contact:

Post by alanz »

Agree with both Jeffs - my 4001 has a slimmer neck but the sound is inferior to my 4003. My 4003 is as easy a player as my 4001.

As for bridge lift - the Hipshot on my 4003 should take care of that issue.
Listen to that sustain!
User avatar
72rick
Member
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:00 am

Post by 72rick »

Hey Jeff,

Thank you very much.

The Trussrod design sounds very significant. That's the kind of control you want to have, very direct response.

My 72' 4001 has had active electronics driving my original pickups almost the whole time I've owned it. Even the three 74' 4001 I've owned have each had at least one none original pickup.
1)Two Seymore-Duncan Rick Replacements 2) Bridge Seymore-Duncan Rick replacement and 3) my current 74' Walnut 4001 has Rickenbacker 4003 Hi-Output pickups.
So I'm not totally hung on original tone generated by electronics.

I do remember the additional screws installed into the 4003 Bridges. I actually use Allen Head screws (rather than Phillips) in my original 72' Rick bridge for easier intonation adjusting.

The Fret-Wire material/gauge increase sounds good too.

I guess the real question left to me is the Neck Design. So is it just more wood, adding thickness, or is there more to it?

I know that strength is added with Laminations, such as the Walnut (Skunk Stripe) Strip in 4001's. This is also aided by a nice thick Fretboard, which Rick's (4001's and 4003's) have always had.

The difference between a Precision and Jazz comes to mind, considering only wood mass ( excluding Fretwire and Trussrod upgrades, which are significant).

So the definitive statement would seem to be that with a new 4003 you will probably; never have to replace your Frets, always have total control of Neck relief, have easy accurate intonation adjustability and impeccable tone. A great feeling neck for sure, just different from the early 70's models. And as to the current Headstock shape, I saw a picture of a gorgeous 68' Fire-Glo 4001 that had the exact same Headstock shape so what can you say. The current body's gorgeous and the Headstock is "Retro"!

You've definitely helped me look at this with a much broader scope and understanding.

Thanks again.
Garret
http://www.myspace.com/greenvilleglorylane
Rickenbacker; '72 FireGlo 4001, '81 JetGlo 4001. '90 Alembic Flame-Koa Persuader.
Custom Hand-Made(Self) 4-String Natural Maple Bass.
Ampeg B-15R & B-15E Bass Amp (2-15 All-Tube 100w Stack, both S/N 1)
User avatar
ricosound
Intermediate Member
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:36 am

Post by ricosound »

"...the Hipshot on my 4003 should take care of that issue."

Can anyone recommend a place to buy the Hipshot bridge online besides Bass Parts Resource?
No matter where you go - there you are.
alanz
Intermediate Member
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:58 pm
Contact:

Post by alanz »

I bought mine from Hipshot.
Listen to that sustain!
shinynewtoy
Intermediate Member
Posts: 1347
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 7:46 pm

Post by shinynewtoy »

Hi, my name is Bob and I'm the other side of the coin...

I've grown to love my '77 4001 more than either my old '94 or '81 4003's. Alot of that is the thinner neck... but I've been blessed with a rock-solid example that hasn't needed to be touched since I got it. As for the electronics... the cap is bypassed in mine and to be honest the tone and output surpass both of my 4003's noticably, and the pickups are both stock. The weight of a bass never bothered me so if the tuners make a significant difference I haven't noticed... I will say the originals on my '77 hold tune for months. As far as the tailpiece...I never had trouble with my 4003's and the 4001 has a Schaller... so that I guess isn't quite a direct comparison.

I've heard about all the things that can go wrong with the earlier basses and consider myself very fortunate to have what has been a very, very solid bass and easily the best all-around one I've ever owned. I haven't played one of the newest 4003's... the newest I touched was my '94. I'll withhold final judgment until that happens... I just wanted to chime in and say that I'll take the Pepsi Challenge with my '77 anyday of the week!
What do you mean the Bass is too loud???
User avatar
72rick
Member
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:00 am

Post by 72rick »

Thank you Bob.

I've never seen a Rick Bridge pull up off the body. But I have seen Phillips Head adjustment screws stripped. That's why mine are Allen Head.

I've also herd notorius things about the original Grover Tuners on my 72' and mine are rock solid.

As far as playing, I'd give up my "Alembic" before I'd ever give up my 72' Rick 4001.

So, on that note, I guess I'm saying that I agree!
http://www.myspace.com/greenvilleglorylane
Rickenbacker; '72 FireGlo 4001, '81 JetGlo 4001. '90 Alembic Flame-Koa Persuader.
Custom Hand-Made(Self) 4-String Natural Maple Bass.
Ampeg B-15R & B-15E Bass Amp (2-15 All-Tube 100w Stack, both S/N 1)
User avatar
banta
Veteran RRF member
Posts: 375
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:00 am

Post by banta »

Just to clarify:

I was the one that made the post on HC that Garret referred to. He misunderstood my remarks. The guy who started the thread asked about the differences between the 4001 and 4003, and for general information about what to buy, what to avoid, etc.

I simply wanted him to know that in general, the 4003 is an updated (and improved) version of the 4001, and it doesn't make sense to pay more for an old 4001 than a new 4003 unless the collector's value is something you're after.

If anybody thinks this is wrong, feel free to enlighten me.
ricnbacker
Veteran RRF member
Posts: 532
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:00 am

Post by ricnbacker »

as in the other thread at the other site, you were very informative and right.
you gave a very insightful polite reply
User avatar
chefothefuture
Advanced Member
Posts: 1886
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 6:00 am

Post by chefothefuture »

Mmmmmm....
Full width inlays.....
'68 4001MG, '70 4001 21Fret, '71 4001S MG, '71 4001FG, '72 4001AZ, '73 4001FG, '73 4001resto, '59 365FG, '96 381/12v69FG, '71 4001 21Fret FG
jwr2

Post by jwr2 »

The 4001 and 4003 are both good basses ... the early 70s basses are becoming collector's items and the mid and late 70s basses are good gigging basses ... the 4003 is newer and better ... I prefer 1990 and later myself ... I sold my old 4001 basses and my oldest now is a 1986 ...

And Brad I agree with you ...
clankchris
Member
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 6:43 pm

Post by clankchris »

Yeah Jeff, I agree with you...I love my '03 4003..

But...
....if anyone wants to unload their CS4001 for my "superior" 4003, I'll be glad to get that silly yellow thing out of your hands for you..I'll even deal with where I'm going to use my pick, as I play right towards the back of the bridge pup, and that darn-old-fashioned horseshoe will be right in the way..and someone at Rick forgot to add binding to that bass, too!

I hope everyone appreciates what I'm trying to sacrifice here!!

P.S. - I'll make sure to follow up on the trade by giving a monthly report on your CS4001..."Ugh, how did you ever play this thing? It's soo hard to get any tone from it!...and the color...yuck!"
Post Reply

Return to “Rickenbacker Basses: by Joey Vasco & Tony Cabibe”