"Tan on the inside, bursting out into a soft charcoal black on the outside edges. But what colour pickguards?"
How about the cream of the Guinness head?
Colouring in.....
Moderator: jingle_jangle
My dream Rickenbacker would be a 4003 finished in a metallic dark violet. Kinda like the current Midnight Blue, with the metal flake, but a dark violet.
I don't have one needing refinishing, so I'd have to acquire another one.
My second color would be a cream color, like the CS basses. My third color would be a metalflake jetglo, just like the current jetglo, but with metalflake added to the finish.
Fun discussion thread, thanks!!
I don't have one needing refinishing, so I'd have to acquire another one.
My second color would be a cream color, like the CS basses. My third color would be a metalflake jetglo, just like the current jetglo, but with metalflake added to the finish.
Fun discussion thread, thanks!!
Well... my humble opinion is...
a) it's great when the wood structure is seen through the paint as mentioned before;
b) colors: natural wood color; fading dark brown - sort of stain effect; swamp green; fading grey (closer to white in the middle and fading to dark at the edges; sort of natural "silver" rats coloring), not metallic; dark brown, perhaps a bit greeny, on fretboard;
c) call me "wood nuts", but i also like the idea of a wood imitation on pickguard...
Hmmm... Mousie has just suggested Canary... not so sure it'd fit "grown ups", but for kids like her (and like myself
)... why not, anyway?
a) it's great when the wood structure is seen through the paint as mentioned before;
b) colors: natural wood color; fading dark brown - sort of stain effect; swamp green; fading grey (closer to white in the middle and fading to dark at the edges; sort of natural "silver" rats coloring), not metallic; dark brown, perhaps a bit greeny, on fretboard;
c) call me "wood nuts", but i also like the idea of a wood imitation on pickguard...
Hmmm... Mousie has just suggested Canary... not so sure it'd fit "grown ups", but for kids like her (and like myself
)... why not, anyway?Nothing will get you dead quicker than being deadly serious about yourself.
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jingle_jangle
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Kevin, price any urethane or lacquer automotive paint these days, and you'll be shocked.
$120 CDN = $105 US.
That's a mid-range price for a quart of good urethane. I often see that kind of price on a pint of color.
Here's some insight into the economics of guitar finishing, from my point of view:
Price is dependent on pigments used to mix the colors. I have a 72-color mixing bank, courtesy of the good profiteers at PPG. My paint computer hard drive has over 500,000 formulas for paint colors going back to the early '60s.
I use a Sartorius digital paint scale to accurately measure portions. This scale costs what a new 330 does; made in Germany and accurate to .01 gram.
Mixing colors (pigments) come in quarts. These are pure pigments combined with binders and stabilizers, and are very intense. Reds, yellows and oranges are the priciest, costing in some cases over $275.00 US per quart. That's wholesale, and would be marked up to the consumer about 40%, yielding a retail price of over $400.00!
Since colors like reds and purples use a lot of pigment, they are very expensive to purchase.
Pearl essences come in powder form in my system, and there are 16 different shades and grades, costing $82.00 wholesale for a 4-ounce squeeze bottle. A quart of that copper metallic would use almost an ounce of pearl, accounting for about $35.00 of the retail price.
When I mix colors for a guitar, I typically mix a pint whether it's a burst dye or solid color. But, since the paint is reduced 100% with urethane solvent, I only need eight ounces of paint and eight of reducer. I don't use the computer for formulas--these are done by eye 95% of the time.
The clearcoat I use is a non-yellowing PPG formula that costs about $240.00/gallon, including catalyst. I average 20 ounces of clearcoat per guitar and 28-30 per bass. That's $40-50 in clearcoat alone, at my wholesale prices.
The fees that I charge for refinishes, therefore, represent about 75% labor and 25% materials.
$120 CDN = $105 US.
That's a mid-range price for a quart of good urethane. I often see that kind of price on a pint of color.
Here's some insight into the economics of guitar finishing, from my point of view:
Price is dependent on pigments used to mix the colors. I have a 72-color mixing bank, courtesy of the good profiteers at PPG. My paint computer hard drive has over 500,000 formulas for paint colors going back to the early '60s.
I use a Sartorius digital paint scale to accurately measure portions. This scale costs what a new 330 does; made in Germany and accurate to .01 gram.
Mixing colors (pigments) come in quarts. These are pure pigments combined with binders and stabilizers, and are very intense. Reds, yellows and oranges are the priciest, costing in some cases over $275.00 US per quart. That's wholesale, and would be marked up to the consumer about 40%, yielding a retail price of over $400.00!
Since colors like reds and purples use a lot of pigment, they are very expensive to purchase.
Pearl essences come in powder form in my system, and there are 16 different shades and grades, costing $82.00 wholesale for a 4-ounce squeeze bottle. A quart of that copper metallic would use almost an ounce of pearl, accounting for about $35.00 of the retail price.
When I mix colors for a guitar, I typically mix a pint whether it's a burst dye or solid color. But, since the paint is reduced 100% with urethane solvent, I only need eight ounces of paint and eight of reducer. I don't use the computer for formulas--these are done by eye 95% of the time.
The clearcoat I use is a non-yellowing PPG formula that costs about $240.00/gallon, including catalyst. I average 20 ounces of clearcoat per guitar and 28-30 per bass. That's $40-50 in clearcoat alone, at my wholesale prices.
The fees that I charge for refinishes, therefore, represent about 75% labor and 25% materials.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
The price I stated was just for the mixed copper paint, which someone asked about at the store Saturday morning. Of course, clearcoat would be extra & we can only sell it in quarts or gallons, same as the color coat.
At the parts store I work at we sell mixed paint to local shops. We're not the local PPG dealer, so we sell Zynagold 2K & the cheaper Valupro line. Urethane or acrylic enamel, depending on type of converter used.
The pearls however are only available in 2K, thus the price.
This isn't a rich area of the country, and there are few resto projects on the go here in the rust belt, so we don't sell much of the expensive stuff.
People on the street seem to think that it should only cost around $500 to paint an entire car & are totally freaked out when they learn the true cost of a small repair. There are no body men getting rich on this work!
Any dummy can buy a spray bomb & make a mess, but a pro job costs real money. There's no
in-between.
Sometimes you just have to tell them "either it's done right, or not, make a choice."
So I guess I'm saying I have a decent idea what a refin costs, & that's just the paint. There's thinner, masks, filters, the cost of the equipment, shop itself, overhead, & we haven't even touched how long it takes to get it just right. Sometimes that even happens the first time, but not always.
And if the customer is finicky & doesn't communicate well, then that takes longer still. The longer the job takes, the fewer jobs you can do in a given amount of time.
I have the highest regard for anyone who finishes guitars, cars, furniture, etc.
That's not even mentioning that all these chemicals are EXTREMELY toxic!
Anyone who comes in contact with this stuff for extended periods of time is literally killing themselves, regardless of the most stringent safety precautions, some of it still gets in your system.
Very few painters stay at it for more than a few years, maybe a decade, & sadly, most shops don't go overboard in the safety department (it costs money).
In conclusion (finally): keep up the fantastic work, but take care of yourself as well. Please teach someone the tricks of the trade so they can pass it along later as well.
At the parts store I work at we sell mixed paint to local shops. We're not the local PPG dealer, so we sell Zynagold 2K & the cheaper Valupro line. Urethane or acrylic enamel, depending on type of converter used.
The pearls however are only available in 2K, thus the price.
This isn't a rich area of the country, and there are few resto projects on the go here in the rust belt, so we don't sell much of the expensive stuff.
People on the street seem to think that it should only cost around $500 to paint an entire car & are totally freaked out when they learn the true cost of a small repair. There are no body men getting rich on this work!
Any dummy can buy a spray bomb & make a mess, but a pro job costs real money. There's no
in-between.
Sometimes you just have to tell them "either it's done right, or not, make a choice."
So I guess I'm saying I have a decent idea what a refin costs, & that's just the paint. There's thinner, masks, filters, the cost of the equipment, shop itself, overhead, & we haven't even touched how long it takes to get it just right. Sometimes that even happens the first time, but not always.
And if the customer is finicky & doesn't communicate well, then that takes longer still. The longer the job takes, the fewer jobs you can do in a given amount of time.
I have the highest regard for anyone who finishes guitars, cars, furniture, etc.
That's not even mentioning that all these chemicals are EXTREMELY toxic!
Anyone who comes in contact with this stuff for extended periods of time is literally killing themselves, regardless of the most stringent safety precautions, some of it still gets in your system.
Very few painters stay at it for more than a few years, maybe a decade, & sadly, most shops don't go overboard in the safety department (it costs money).
In conclusion (finally): keep up the fantastic work, but take care of yourself as well. Please teach someone the tricks of the trade so they can pass it along later as well.
Plus five minus five!
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jingle_jangle
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Amen. The techniques of finishing as I've come to use them (and there's a lot of wasted stuff--technology and process--in most techniques) are taught as my "system" in my department, to an average of 150 new students per year. I've been doing this for 3 years, and we just graduated the "old guard" (students who predated my system and were still struggling with old ideas and bad info). I personally have taught over 500 students how to use an HVLP spray gun properly, in the last three years.
So now, they're all learning one system of finishing, with full tech backup from me and the teachers who I taught, and the results are gratifying.
Safety is #1 with me, both in the fabrication shops and in finishing. Everyone learns a bit about paint chemistry and how to properly mask up, dispose of waste materials, and keep their equipment in tip top shape.
Now we come to guitar finishing. There is, to my knowledge, not one school of luthiery in the USA which teaches a comprehensive course in guitar finishing using up-to-date methods and material technology. There is very little demand overall for this sort of thing, because of the expense of setting up a proper finishing area and conforming to local regulations, keeping materials fresh, and technology up to date. So, spraying may be taught, nitro refins are encouraged, and in the best schools, French polishing is also covered. This is fine for instruments which originally used these finishing methods...
Rickenbacker people are like no other Guitar afficionados. They will spend a reasonable amount to restore or refinish their guitars, providing it's done correctly. Gretsch folk don't care; they seem to still be locked into "nitro is better", which is outmoded thinking. Gibson people are mostly stuck in the past, too. And Fender people are very confused, what with the factory charging more for pre-trashed instruments.
After doing finishes on all sorts of guitars in all sorts of materials, I'm very glad that Rick folks, to put it in one word, understand what it takes to restore a guitar.
So now, they're all learning one system of finishing, with full tech backup from me and the teachers who I taught, and the results are gratifying.
Safety is #1 with me, both in the fabrication shops and in finishing. Everyone learns a bit about paint chemistry and how to properly mask up, dispose of waste materials, and keep their equipment in tip top shape.
Now we come to guitar finishing. There is, to my knowledge, not one school of luthiery in the USA which teaches a comprehensive course in guitar finishing using up-to-date methods and material technology. There is very little demand overall for this sort of thing, because of the expense of setting up a proper finishing area and conforming to local regulations, keeping materials fresh, and technology up to date. So, spraying may be taught, nitro refins are encouraged, and in the best schools, French polishing is also covered. This is fine for instruments which originally used these finishing methods...
Rickenbacker people are like no other Guitar afficionados. They will spend a reasonable amount to restore or refinish their guitars, providing it's done correctly. Gretsch folk don't care; they seem to still be locked into "nitro is better", which is outmoded thinking. Gibson people are mostly stuck in the past, too. And Fender people are very confused, what with the factory charging more for pre-trashed instruments.
After doing finishes on all sorts of guitars in all sorts of materials, I'm very glad that Rick folks, to put it in one word, understand what it takes to restore a guitar.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Like a lot of fine arts, people need to be walked through the process to realize just how much work went into something REALLY nice.
At first they say "why does it cost so much". Then when they see the full extent of what's required to do a pro job, they're glad you did it so cheaply.
And besides the material costs & years of training & experience, it also takes talent. Just like playing an instrument well, it doesn't happen after a one week course at the local community college (not knocking CC's in any way!).
I can understand the appeal of a well worn old Strat, but to buy a new one artificially aged is just silly. You're actually paying someone to beat your guitar up for you! You could at least do it yourself for free at home!
Anyway, back to the subject at hand.
I always had a thing for those purple paisley Fenders. A nice dark purple, though, with MID blue, some azure, & some red in it.
At first they say "why does it cost so much". Then when they see the full extent of what's required to do a pro job, they're glad you did it so cheaply.
And besides the material costs & years of training & experience, it also takes talent. Just like playing an instrument well, it doesn't happen after a one week course at the local community college (not knocking CC's in any way!).
I can understand the appeal of a well worn old Strat, but to buy a new one artificially aged is just silly. You're actually paying someone to beat your guitar up for you! You could at least do it yourself for free at home!
Anyway, back to the subject at hand.
I always had a thing for those purple paisley Fenders. A nice dark purple, though, with MID blue, some azure, & some red in it.
Plus five minus five!
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jingle_jangle
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shinynewtoy
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