Help With Intonation Problems ?
Moderator: jingle_jangle
Help With Intonation Problems ?
Brand new 330 12. Tried to play it last weekend , but intonation was a major problem. Just picked it up from the luthier today, $85 later and overall the guitar is better, but the low E pairs (and to a lesser degree, the A's) are hopelessly sharp on the 1st through 5th frets. I can tune it to 440, and even get it dialed in at the 12th fret, but all first position chords are sharp at the 5th and 6th strings. I could really use some cause for optimism, as I have now owned my Rickenbacker for one week and it has yet to be truly playable.
I'm no expert by any means, Jere, but if 'twas me I'd be sighting down the fretboard from the bridge (assuming it's level) looking for a dip in the lower fret area (unlikely) or a twist - bass side lower than treble. Or you could sight the nut along the headstock - that may indicate that the nut is higher on the bass side. Strings could be an issue also - are you using standard RIC strings?
"Never eat more than you can lift." - Mr. Moon
Here goes the debate on 6 saddle versus 12 saddle again. Is your a 6 saddle Jere? Obviously the 12 saddle will give you greater individual adjustment but will it be at a loss to the sound of the guitar - I don't know?
I've been pondering doing this for ages but not all that keen on spending the dough if the sound is going to be compromised, I think I'll try to work around the tuning issue.
Any help from those who have made the change?
I've been pondering doing this for ages but not all that keen on spending the dough if the sound is going to be compromised, I think I'll try to work around the tuning issue.
Any help from those who have made the change?
Life wasn't meant to be easy
Don't worry about intonation. Try this experiment:
Fret a string with your normal finger pressure, any string, any fret. Using your tuner make sure it's in perfect tune.
Then press a little harder....only a little. Goes way sharp doesn't it. Now press softer...only a little softer than normal. Goes way flat right?
Guess what you just learned? The whole accurate intonation deal is a **** shoot. Good guitar players are unknowingly compensating with finger pressure to bring notes into pitch.
If you have perfect pitch and you really want to do it right. Get a fretless guitar and use your ears like a violinist.
There is not a guitar made with frets that is pitch accurate all over the neck. This is especially true near the nut. Some people use the Buzz Feiten system to help with pitch at the low frets, but that just moves the problem to different areas of the neck. I personally don't play many cowboy chords anyway.
So put down your tools and play that thing!
Fret a string with your normal finger pressure, any string, any fret. Using your tuner make sure it's in perfect tune.
Then press a little harder....only a little. Goes way sharp doesn't it. Now press softer...only a little softer than normal. Goes way flat right?
Guess what you just learned? The whole accurate intonation deal is a **** shoot. Good guitar players are unknowingly compensating with finger pressure to bring notes into pitch.
If you have perfect pitch and you really want to do it right. Get a fretless guitar and use your ears like a violinist.
There is not a guitar made with frets that is pitch accurate all over the neck. This is especially true near the nut. Some people use the Buzz Feiten system to help with pitch at the low frets, but that just moves the problem to different areas of the neck. I personally don't play many cowboy chords anyway.
So put down your tools and play that thing!
Call a first position G chord what you will, I find it essential to any Rickenbacker 12 string tune in the key of D (which describes a lot of them). It does not take perfect pitch to recognize a note that is 20 cents sharp.
We have now adjusted the truss rod on the bass side, and cut the nut down a bit, and it's getting closer, but it still barks.
We have now adjusted the truss rod on the bass side, and cut the nut down a bit, and it's getting closer, but it still barks.
COME ON GUYS!! Jere is looking for some advice and help here. We have a couple of opinions but far fewer than I would have expected.
I've never had the same problem with my 660/12, so my input is extremely limited.
We're a caring, sharing, fuzzy bunch here, aren't we?
I've never had the same problem with my 660/12, so my input is extremely limited.
We're a caring, sharing, fuzzy bunch here, aren't we?
"Never eat more than you can lift." - Mr. Moon
Hm. The problem is only happening on the low "E" pairs?
My first suggestion would be to swap out the strings for another pair-same gauge, and type, if possible.
That can often be the case-strings are not perfect. as for the 6 vs. 12 saddle issue, I decided to keep the 6-saddle on my personal 2002 330-12 because I was able to intonate it within +/- a few cents, using either Pyramid or RIC strings and a calibrated strobe tuner.
String height at the nut is rather critical to keep from sharpening the notes, too. Make sure you can just clear the first fret when pressing down the strings at the second fret (your luthier or tech can probably show you how to do this.)
One thing I would recommend is to recut the slots on the bridge saddles to make sire they are burr-free and round at the bottom, and to polish the tops of the saddles. It is also helpful to move the bridge mounting plate back 3/8" from the forwardmost position-it allows for easier compensation. The adjustment slots allow you to do this with no trouble.
Good luck. That should be a joyous guitar to play.
Corey Keller
My first suggestion would be to swap out the strings for another pair-same gauge, and type, if possible.
That can often be the case-strings are not perfect. as for the 6 vs. 12 saddle issue, I decided to keep the 6-saddle on my personal 2002 330-12 because I was able to intonate it within +/- a few cents, using either Pyramid or RIC strings and a calibrated strobe tuner.
String height at the nut is rather critical to keep from sharpening the notes, too. Make sure you can just clear the first fret when pressing down the strings at the second fret (your luthier or tech can probably show you how to do this.)
One thing I would recommend is to recut the slots on the bridge saddles to make sire they are burr-free and round at the bottom, and to polish the tops of the saddles. It is also helpful to move the bridge mounting plate back 3/8" from the forwardmost position-it allows for easier compensation. The adjustment slots allow you to do this with no trouble.
Good luck. That should be a joyous guitar to play.
Corey Keller
"You Can't Glue Glue To Glue!"
Well here's a rather bizarre twist. Someone suggested the following, the physics of which I just don't understand.
Tune the guitar 2 cents flat at the 12th, press the 6th pair @ the 5th fret and tune the "A" notes to 440. By so doing, the "G" notes on the 3rd fret are in tune, and when played in context the entire guitar sounds in tune.
Again, why that works is beyond me, but it seems to have rendered my 330 12 playable for the first time since I received it. Now I can play cowboy chords to my heart's content.
Tune the guitar 2 cents flat at the 12th, press the 6th pair @ the 5th fret and tune the "A" notes to 440. By so doing, the "G" notes on the 3rd fret are in tune, and when played in context the entire guitar sounds in tune.
Again, why that works is beyond me, but it seems to have rendered my 330 12 playable for the first time since I received it. Now I can play cowboy chords to my heart's content.
I don't know about others, but I'm just a little confused with your tuning sequence. Do you tune all 12 strings 2 cents flat at the 12th fret, and then retune the 'E' and 'E' octave only at the 5th fret to 'A'(440), to complete your tuning?
Can you share where you got that information from? If it was a website it might be a good read!
Can you share where you got that information from? If it was a website it might be a good read!
Life wasn't meant to be easy
No website, just some local knowledge. I probably mis-spoke. I tuned across the board 2 cents flat (unfortunately I only have a chromatic tuner, so we're talking "close" as opposed to "right on"). Adjust the saddle to obtain an "A" @ 440 on the 5th. Now when you play "G" on the 3rd fret its in tune with the rest of the guitar. I can't explain it much clearer than that, and I certainly can't explain why it works.