Neck twist help

throw_this_away · Post by **throw_this_away** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:27 pm

Hey guys,

So I have mentioned it before... but I am looking to see if I can remedy a slight neck issue.

My 96' 4003 has a great slim neck.... and I can set it with very low action, but it still does not compare to my straight as an arrow 72' 4001. I can set the strings so low on that that they practically go through the fingerboard.

With the 4003 I get some buzzing (playing lightly) between the 11th and 19th frets on the E side mostly... worse as you get closer to 17th, less of an issue on the A, none at all on the G or D.
Anyway... I will post some ****** pics that I took today of the neck, and will try and take more tomorrow with the strings off.

But basically... under tension (40-100 roundwound rotos) this is what I see...

Bad pics I know... but it looks like either a slight valley around the 14th fret, or a twist up that starts around the 7th such that the neck is twisted higher at the headstock end.

as seen here...

note that my 72 has no twisting of the neck at all from this angle. The nut lines up with the body binding perfectly on both ends. very straight

NOTE: none of these twists or “valleys” are huge… very subtle… but I am not seeing things

The G side of the neck of my 96' is straight as an arrow... no fret buzzing issues. Tightening the E side rod further pulls back the top of the neck such that the dip is still there but then you start getting heavy buzzing on the first 3 frets. I guess you could say it gets a little snaky.

Now, when I remove the strings and loosen the truss rods... the G side has a slight back bow. On the E side you now see a very minor hill or hump centered around the 7th fret. (String tension seems to flatten things out near the headstock, but exacerbates the issue by caving in ever so slightly around the 14th fret) . There is still the apparent twist as seen from the nut looking down the neck, but it is less than with strings on.

So I play fingerstyle... often pretty hard. I also like to hear a little fret buzz when I play. I can get great action out of this bass... (I set it myself now) though I have to tread lightly after the 12th on the E or I get heavy buzzing. Most would consider the action very low, but I am a perfectionist. My jazz bass craps out buzzing all over the neck if I try to get action anywhere near as low with it. Damn my 72 for setting such a high standard.

As it is now, it is very playable... but I keep comparing it to my 72' and I don't like having to avoid playing hard past the 12th fret on the E string.

It strikes me that the neck shape is naturally twisted but this is only a factor if you like your action really low (there is a downside to very thin necks... and the 96 is as thin as it gets). I'm hoping it is something that can be fixed... maybe a bad rod.

I have tried fiddling with both rods under tension and low tension, and I have tried setting the neck to where I want it and then tightening each rod as needed... but still that E side valley around the 14th.

Based on this (possibly excessive) info is this something that could be remedied? There is one very experienced local Luther that I have in mind... but I don't want him charging me big $$$ if it is something that cannot be fixed.

mrm0to · Post by **mrm0to** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:06 pm

It's possible that the fingerboard on the low side is skateboarding up a bit... although the view down the neck from the headstock does look more like a twist to me, too.

chefothefuture · Post by **chefothefuture** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 8:35 pm

Ricks from the mid 90s had some neck hump issues.
The best but not painless cure is a refret.
The board can be planed true thus curing the problem.
This ain't cheap; could run you up to $400 depending on who does it.
There are a few forumites who should do the job nicely.

heinpete · Post by **heinpete** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:18 am

Dear John (don't throw this away!!!)

...try you remove both truss rods and change the side. Also put some grease (only a little bit) to the internal sides of each rod. Finally you could try to tighten them while holding in a fixed position which counterparts the twist.

On my '97 4003 I had some similar problem not by twisting but my neck bends horizontally to the side where the rod is more tight (banana shape to the side!!!).

The neck of the 4001 does not have such problems, as it is a 3ply neck, with the shadua stripe in between the two maple pieces of the neck. However I also had some buckle necked 4001 due to the fingerboard wood grain having some branch (like a birdseye structure wood grain).

Some of these characteristics of the Ric necks disappear with age (probably the wood dries further, if you don't live in the tropics or Florida) so there is still hope!!!

Best regards
Pete

throw_this_away · Post by **throw_this_away** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:20 am

I was thinking about taking a look at the truss rods. how does one go about taking them out? My only thought is that it is not the rods as the relaxed neck position is still a little off.

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:24 am

Buzz on the high frets (above 12-13) is almost certainly a fret leveling issue. A lot of necks have minor twist. Nothing to worry about, it is just the nature of wood. I suspect that if you had the frets leveled properly you would be very surprised by how nicely the bass would play. Fretwork is absolutely key.

heinpete · Post by **heinpete** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:16 am

Ted is right, but I consider fret leveling as the ultimate solution, as you can't raise them later. However usually they get worn down more in the first 7 frets. So go ahead, but find a accurate luthier!!!

teeder · Post by **teeder** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:28 am

John,

The easiest solution is to send me the dreaded '72 that's causing the real problems. Just think how happy you'ld be with your 4003 if it wasn't there to taint your opinion.
I'll even pay for shipping!
Just trying to help.

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:29 am

That is correct, a neck adjustment should always be the first approach. The ultimate solution though, is a bit more drastic. Re-leveling the fingerboard is the ultimate because it requires a complete re-fret and cleaning and truing of the fret slots. Taking a few .001 of an inch of metal from the fret tops is more or less a trivial matter in comparison. If done properly, would hardly be noticeable.

throw_this_away · Post by **throw_this_away** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:09 pm

Yeah... I think the twist as seen looking down the headstock has no effect on playability. It is the apparent dip around the 14th fret that is the issue (possibly a byproduct of the twist). Fret leveling may help compensate for the valley issue and resulting buzzing. Too bad... because I will be getting it looked at by a very PRO Luither next weekend and I have a gig that I was planning to use it for on the same weekend.

Of note, I wonder if the wood grain as seen on the neck has any relation to the issue...

Kevin... what is your mailing address... you can paypal me the shipping costs (100$) and I will send you the 72'. The bass is far too rare and nice for me to keep playing at gigs. Someone has to stop me.

throw_this_away · Post by **throw_this_away** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:10 pm

Also... do you guys think it is worth my time to look at the truss rods?

p.s. thanks for all the help... you guys are a great resource.

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:49 pm

The truss rods are probably ok. If you want to take them out and check them out do this.

1) Remove the strings.

2) Remove the TRC and loosen the rods.

3) Remove the guard.

4) Cover the body and the back edge of the neck pickup route with a thick soft cloth.

5) Loosen the rod nuts most of the way and push them toward the body by pushing on the nuts.

6) When the rods are about to disappear into the neck, take the nuts off and use a thin rod and some light hammer taps to push them the rest of the way.

7) Bend them up slightly as they come out so they won't press too hard against the body.

Use an 8-32 die and a stiff wire brush to clean up the adjusting threads.

9) Check the condition of the masking tape. Replace it if it is torn or damaged. Be sure to wrap it as thinly as possible or the rod might not fit back in the hole.

10) Re-install the rods from the body end. You can use a little car polish (carnuba wax) or soap to lube them up so they slip in smoothly. Don't tap on the acorn nuts or you will dent them. Use hand pressure as much as possible to press them back in. Once the threads reemerge at the headstock, apply a small drop of non-silicone oil or light grease to the threads and reinstall the nuts. Turn them until they are just snug enough to not rattle then go another 1/8th.

Finally, reassemble the instrument, tune and adjust the rods per the instructions on the RIC site.

cerrem · Post by **cerrem** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:37 pm

Hi...
I am new to this site as well as new to Rics... I bought a 1972 Fireglo 4001 2 months ago and love it, but I have to solve a few issues.....
Ted, I believe the truss rod removal you describe is for a 4003... Would it be the same for 4001..
Could you explain how to do this for a 4001..
Many Thanks..
Chris

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:07 pm

Hi Chris and welcome! We love to see pics of Ricks around here so be sure to post that '72 at some point.

Yes, you are right. Removing the older rods is a different operation. Start the same way by removing the strings, TRC, and guard. Remove the adjusting nuts and carefully pry out the aluminum bearing plate. You may have to push the rods down into the neck a bit to get the plate out. Don't go too far though. Once the plate is out, cover the face of the headstock with masking tape to avoid scratches. Pull the rods out one at a time from the headstock. Bend them upward away from the wood as they emerge. You may have to tap them out from the bottom with a piece of rod stock. The older ones sometimes get stuck midway out. Once they are out, straighten them where they are bent. Rub them down with fine steel wool to remove any tape adhesive, debris or rust from the outer surfaces. Clean up the threads with a wire brush and a die (I forget the size just now 10-32?) if you have one. The tape on the old rods (electrical) is only between the rod halves and is usually in good shape and not in need of replacing. Polish the rods with some carnuba wax. This will help prevent them from binding as they go back in and during adjustment. You can use a pearl of carnuba or soap to lube them before you reinsert them. Not too much though. Slide them in one at a time from the headstock with the short side facing the fingerboard. They should go in fairly smoothly. Once they are in, reinstall the bearing plate and nuts. Lube the threads as described above. Do you know the proper way to adjust the older rods?

simer4001 · Post by **simer4001** » Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:47 pm

Do you really need to go through all of that? I'm not sure how bad the twist really is, but what about taking to a guitar shop that has humidified air? I've seen slight neck twists on a 360V64/12 straighten out with this simple solution. Just asking. You guys seem to know more about this than I do.