I was wondering how long a Rickenbacker takes in the finishing process, from bare wood to end product. What is the process, step by step in finishing the instruments? Do bursts take longer than "straight" finishes?
Hmm, I wonder who might have precise information about these questions?!
Finish Question
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
Dale would be the expert here, since he worked for RIC for some years.
I do know that bursts do take longer than solid colors, but how much longer or how long any take I don't know.
I believe I saw a post here that said how long the final buffing & polishing takes, & if I remember correctly, it's 1 1/2 hours per instrument on average.
Or if you could find Rosa, she might be able to tell you. She's put her name on quite a few basses over the years (all 3 of mine)!
I do know that bursts do take longer than solid colors, but how much longer or how long any take I don't know.
I believe I saw a post here that said how long the final buffing & polishing takes, & if I remember correctly, it's 1 1/2 hours per instrument on average.
Or if you could find Rosa, she might be able to tell you. She's put her name on quite a few basses over the years (all 3 of mine)!
Plus five minus five!
I'm not wondering about the polishing. I'm thinking about the actual finishing. I presume there must be multiple coats of the conversion varnish applied? How much time is left (must pass) between coats? How many coats are applied? Is the burst inherent in the conversion varnish application or is it a separate process within finishing?
Dale, Curmudgeon, where are you? For goodness sake, set me straight!
Dale, Curmudgeon, where are you? For goodness sake, set me straight!
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jingle_jangle
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Bill, I've visited Rick on several occasions, all within the last year, and their finishing process has changed in the last year alone! So an exact answer to your question would be possible (from one of the Halls, not that it would serve any real purpose, save to satisfy our curiosity) but would go obsolete within a few months.
A burst requires a bit more control of the spray gun, but less coloring material than a solid paint job. Bursts are done with transparent but bodied dyes (not water-thin), solids are done with automotive type acrylic lacquers. There is no colorant in the conversion varnish except in the case of AFG, when a slight amber tint is added to the CV. Sharp-eyed viewers might notice a slight buildup of amber on the edges of the binding of AFG instruments.
Instruments are finish sanded both by hand and with handheld palm sanders, blown off and tack clothed and then sealed. After a short dry cycle, they pass into the color booth where color or burst is applied. All the instruments of that day's single color are painted before the next color is run (i.e., all FGs are painted before the JGs are run, etc.) There is a definite order that colors are usually run in, but I do not know what that order is. There will be some instruments that are cycling back through the line a second time for repair or correction of a defect before release, too. They must be as perfect as possible--that's the rule.
After the color has dried, if there is no binding to be scraped, the guitar or bass is moved to the varnish booth. I don't know specifically how many coats are put on. There are a lot, though. The finish is deliberately overbuilt to allow for flatting and buffing. Guitars are hung by hooks from the tuner holes in the headstock during drying operations.
Bound guitars and basses are partially masked before spraying colors. following color, but before spraying varnish, the masking is removed and binding is hand-scraped. Then the guitar or bass is returned to the paint line for varnish.
Following varnishing, guitars and basses are allowed to cure a minimum of three days before sanding and buffing operations are begun. The polishing department has several stations where the flat parts of the guitar's body are placed into a jig and power and hand-sanded, then the curved parts are done, mostly by hand, then the neck and headstock. The fretboards are detailed almost entirely by hand. Polishing is done on large cotton wheels using pricey European compound sticks. Final buffing and detailing is done wholly by hand and the instruments then move on to assembly.
My own restos followed this regimen even before my first RIC tour, and I've adapted my methods to follow Rickenbacker's since then. Surprisingly, there was originally about a 90% overlap, because finishing methods are pretty standard for this type of instrument. Rickenbacker's point of distinction is mainly the amount of handwork that still goes into their product, long after larger manufacturers have gone over to nearly full automation.
A burst requires a bit more control of the spray gun, but less coloring material than a solid paint job. Bursts are done with transparent but bodied dyes (not water-thin), solids are done with automotive type acrylic lacquers. There is no colorant in the conversion varnish except in the case of AFG, when a slight amber tint is added to the CV. Sharp-eyed viewers might notice a slight buildup of amber on the edges of the binding of AFG instruments.
Instruments are finish sanded both by hand and with handheld palm sanders, blown off and tack clothed and then sealed. After a short dry cycle, they pass into the color booth where color or burst is applied. All the instruments of that day's single color are painted before the next color is run (i.e., all FGs are painted before the JGs are run, etc.) There is a definite order that colors are usually run in, but I do not know what that order is. There will be some instruments that are cycling back through the line a second time for repair or correction of a defect before release, too. They must be as perfect as possible--that's the rule.
After the color has dried, if there is no binding to be scraped, the guitar or bass is moved to the varnish booth. I don't know specifically how many coats are put on. There are a lot, though. The finish is deliberately overbuilt to allow for flatting and buffing. Guitars are hung by hooks from the tuner holes in the headstock during drying operations.
Bound guitars and basses are partially masked before spraying colors. following color, but before spraying varnish, the masking is removed and binding is hand-scraped. Then the guitar or bass is returned to the paint line for varnish.
Following varnishing, guitars and basses are allowed to cure a minimum of three days before sanding and buffing operations are begun. The polishing department has several stations where the flat parts of the guitar's body are placed into a jig and power and hand-sanded, then the curved parts are done, mostly by hand, then the neck and headstock. The fretboards are detailed almost entirely by hand. Polishing is done on large cotton wheels using pricey European compound sticks. Final buffing and detailing is done wholly by hand and the instruments then move on to assembly.
My own restos followed this regimen even before my first RIC tour, and I've adapted my methods to follow Rickenbacker's since then. Surprisingly, there was originally about a 90% overlap, because finishing methods are pretty standard for this type of instrument. Rickenbacker's point of distinction is mainly the amount of handwork that still goes into their product, long after larger manufacturers have gone over to nearly full automation.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
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jingle_jangle
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Burst, same as a solid color. Actual spraying of the color, about less than half an hour. But that's a deceiving number. There's sealing steps, lots of varnishing and tons of sanding and buffing!
Percentage of time from the time the guitar enters the finishing department until it leaves to assembly (this includes sealing, painting, and color-sanding and buffing), I would say 50-60%. And this is all hand work.
Ben Hall still posts here from time to time and he is quite welcome to back me or correct me on this, as this is my impression from my factory visits over the last year.
Percentage of time from the time the guitar enters the finishing department until it leaves to assembly (this includes sealing, painting, and color-sanding and buffing), I would say 50-60%. And this is all hand work.
Ben Hall still posts here from time to time and he is quite welcome to back me or correct me on this, as this is my impression from my factory visits over the last year.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
To quote JH's answer to that question (posed in 1998):
"A typical instrument takes about 5 weeks from the time we cut the wood until the guitar goes out the door. Obviously a model like the 381 takes the most time and the oil finish instruments the least. Believe it or not, the woodwork usually only takes a day, the binding a day (if there is any), and final assembly a day. The rest is all in the finish department, including at least 14 days of drying time."
"A typical instrument takes about 5 weeks from the time we cut the wood until the guitar goes out the door. Obviously a model like the 381 takes the most time and the oil finish instruments the least. Believe it or not, the woodwork usually only takes a day, the binding a day (if there is any), and final assembly a day. The rest is all in the finish department, including at least 14 days of drying time."
"Never eat more than you can lift." - Mr. Moon
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jingle_jangle
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Thanks, Aitch.
That sounds about right. I know that all the spraying, drying, polishing, sanding, means that something like a week to a week and a half is spent cycling in and around the finishing department.
Each time a guitar is sprayed (sealer, color or dye, clearcoat, more clearcoat), it dries a day or two or three, is scuffed and/or sanded again, and sprayed again. It's only the final coats that are sanded and buffed on big wheels with Menzerna compound.
Then it's off to assembly...
That sounds about right. I know that all the spraying, drying, polishing, sanding, means that something like a week to a week and a half is spent cycling in and around the finishing department.
Each time a guitar is sprayed (sealer, color or dye, clearcoat, more clearcoat), it dries a day or two or three, is scuffed and/or sanded again, and sprayed again. It's only the final coats that are sanded and buffed on big wheels with Menzerna compound.
Then it's off to assembly...
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
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soundmasterg
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Paul, you said " A burst requires a bit more control of the spray gun, but less coloring material than a solid paint job. Bursts are done with transparent but bodied dyes (not water-thin), solids are done with automotive type acrylic lacquers. There is no colorant in the conversion varnish except in the case of AFG, when a slight amber tint is added to the CV. Sharp-eyed viewers might notice a slight buildup of amber on the edges of the binding of AFG instruments."
My understanding of that is that the initial burst is sprayed on rather than rubbed into the wood?
Do you happen to know what the dye is suspended in? Is it lacquer, alcohol, water, or conversion varnish, or something else?
If I was to duplicate this type of finish for my RIC 230 that needs refinishing, I need some more details about how it is done. I have some Stew-Mac dyes that are water or alcohol soluable, but would want to make sure they are compatible with a conversion varnish topcoat. Thanks!
My understanding of that is that the initial burst is sprayed on rather than rubbed into the wood?
Do you happen to know what the dye is suspended in? Is it lacquer, alcohol, water, or conversion varnish, or something else?
If I was to duplicate this type of finish for my RIC 230 that needs refinishing, I need some more details about how it is done. I have some Stew-Mac dyes that are water or alcohol soluable, but would want to make sure they are compatible with a conversion varnish topcoat. Thanks!
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jingle_jangle
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The dyes on a burst finish are not rubbed into the wood. Look back at Fender. Their old two-and three-color bursts were put on over a completely filled and sealed body (Fullerplast).
So that's where you begin--with a smoothly-sanded, sealed guitar body. There are several different ways of sealing a wooden guitar body, and RIC uses two: one for the oiled body guitars like 650s and one for conversion-varnished guitars and basses.
I personally would toss the StewMac dyes and become friends with the guy who runs the mixing bank at the auto paint store in your vicinity.
The problem with those dyes is that they must be suspended in a transparent medium which has enough body to lie properly on the sealed guitar's slick surface without beading, and not so much color intensity that you inadvertantly duplicate Clown-glo.
I use urethane (DBC) toners that I extend a bit with Basecoat Converter/Stabilizer and dilute a LOT with DT reducer. These are all PPG professional products. I mix my standard (FG, AG) colors and my specials (Purpleglo, Turquoiseglo, etc) from the DBC palette of 72 toners. These can be built in multiple passes over my base finish (which is MG, incidentally), until the burst or transparent color is just right. BG like John Simmons' bass is a transparent deep oxblood toner blend, which has been put on in about twenty passes to achieve the deep color and depth that characterizes this finish, while still allowing the grain of the maple to show through.
All these colors, being urethane, are compatible with urethane clearcoat. My own clearcoat is a type of conversion varnish made by PPG (a different supplier than RIC), so the paints stay in the same family to avaio weird reactions that you sometimes can get when brands are mixed due to chemical formula incompatibilities.
I can't give you a whole bunch of info on the compatibility of the StewMac dyes with your CV (you don't even mention what brand and type of CV you're using) but my suggestion is to do what I do when testing colors--cut some nice pieces of wood on a table saw. I use 1/2" or 3/4" baltic birch or maple plywood. Seal them like they are guitar wood. Then spray the dye you plan on using, and follow with your conversion varnish--just paint them as if you were painting your 230. Let 'em cure and see what you get. These test panels are invaluable to check colors and reactions and how much color or varnish to apply. They can even be color-sanded and buffed to evaluate gloss and number of coats.
So that's where you begin--with a smoothly-sanded, sealed guitar body. There are several different ways of sealing a wooden guitar body, and RIC uses two: one for the oiled body guitars like 650s and one for conversion-varnished guitars and basses.
I personally would toss the StewMac dyes and become friends with the guy who runs the mixing bank at the auto paint store in your vicinity.
The problem with those dyes is that they must be suspended in a transparent medium which has enough body to lie properly on the sealed guitar's slick surface without beading, and not so much color intensity that you inadvertantly duplicate Clown-glo.
I use urethane (DBC) toners that I extend a bit with Basecoat Converter/Stabilizer and dilute a LOT with DT reducer. These are all PPG professional products. I mix my standard (FG, AG) colors and my specials (Purpleglo, Turquoiseglo, etc) from the DBC palette of 72 toners. These can be built in multiple passes over my base finish (which is MG, incidentally), until the burst or transparent color is just right. BG like John Simmons' bass is a transparent deep oxblood toner blend, which has been put on in about twenty passes to achieve the deep color and depth that characterizes this finish, while still allowing the grain of the maple to show through.
All these colors, being urethane, are compatible with urethane clearcoat. My own clearcoat is a type of conversion varnish made by PPG (a different supplier than RIC), so the paints stay in the same family to avaio weird reactions that you sometimes can get when brands are mixed due to chemical formula incompatibilities.
I can't give you a whole bunch of info on the compatibility of the StewMac dyes with your CV (you don't even mention what brand and type of CV you're using) but my suggestion is to do what I do when testing colors--cut some nice pieces of wood on a table saw. I use 1/2" or 3/4" baltic birch or maple plywood. Seal them like they are guitar wood. Then spray the dye you plan on using, and follow with your conversion varnish--just paint them as if you were painting your 230. Let 'em cure and see what you get. These test panels are invaluable to check colors and reactions and how much color or varnish to apply. They can even be color-sanded and buffed to evaluate gloss and number of coats.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
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soundmasterg
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Hey Paul, thats very helpful info, thank you very much! I was only suggesting CV because thats what RIC uses. I've only sprayed with nitro-cellulose lacquer and acrylic lacquer in the past, so would have a bit of a learning curve to spray with CV or urethane before I tried to spray the guitar. The Stew Mac dyes work really nicely if you mix it with alcohol or water, then rub it into a maple top for example, and then once it dries, spray nitro clear over it. It gives a PRS style deep finish if done right, and is pretty easy to work with. I think it works better with alcohol personally, but others who have used it may disagree.
The acrylic lacquers that I've used were all PPG, though you can't really get any of it anymore due to environmental reasons. I can see I'll have to do some checking around. (which is fine because I still have to get two colors of finish off the 230)
The acrylic lacquers that I've used were all PPG, though you can't really get any of it anymore due to environmental reasons. I can see I'll have to do some checking around. (which is fine because I still have to get two colors of finish off the 230)