Mike Rutherford's 4001S - On video!

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:18 pm

What did he play on The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway? I always thought it was a Ric bass. It sounds like heavy distortion with a guitar double tracking the bass or maybe even an 8 string bass.

Speaking of Ric basses I went to the Salvation Army today, where I go for records and antique electronic stuff and bought a Capitol 45 of Hello Goodbye in excellent shape.

bobcat · Post by **bobcat** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:59 pm

I WISH it was a Ric bass. It's actually a 6-string bass/guitar doubleneck, but I think the bass side was strung EADGBE like a guitar, but in the range of a bass. What he did a lot, I believe, was play the bass part distorted on his bass, and then double it with synth pedals. He also used the synth pedals to do bass when he was playing guitar. Like, "Back In NYC" is just one note on the synth pedals until you get to the "As I cuddled the porcupine" bit, where he then plays the doubleneck.

It's weird trying to figure out exactly who's playing what in Genesis. "Dance on a Volcano" is Steve Hackett and Mike Rutherford on guitars, while Rutherford plays bass on the pedals, and Tony Banks doubles one of the guitar lines (I believe Hackett's) with a synth while playing chords with a Hammond and/or synth choir. Argh.

jon · Post by **jon** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 8:25 pm

Ed, I think you are right that this is from the Foxtrot tour. If memory serves me right, this clip is from Bataclan, Paris which would make it 10 Jan 1973.

There is some footage from Belgium in 1972 where there are some clearer shots of Mike's 4001S.

I think the bass on The Lamb was a Microfret 6 six string, which was then paired with a Rickenbacker 12-string to make the doubleneck used on the tour.

edski · Post by **edski** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:55 am

I saw Genesis in NYC in 1982...they played "Supper's Ready", and Rutherford, Banks, and Darryl Steurmer all played 12 strings to start.

Certainly their arrangements had flexibility. Bobcat mentioned "Dance on a Volcano"...another strange arrangement on Trick is "Entangled".

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:41 am

I also thought I had seen him with a 4 string bass-guitar doubleneck.

henry5 · Post by **henry5** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:54 am

"Entangled" is so beautiful...and so is "Cinema Show". As for "Supper's Ready", the day I write a piece half as good as that I can finally give up.....

edski · Post by **edski** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:14 pm

I agree Shaun...but looking at Genesis' work in term of "flow" (however one would want to define that term), SR is still one of those "jumpy" pieces. IMO it shares more compositionally with Hogweed than Cinema Show...

Still some fantastic parts of SR...especially some of the rhythmic interplay in the "Apocolypse" part...9/8 in the rhythm section overlain by a 4/4 keyboard solo.

Entangled is also a rhythmic challenge: solid 6/8 in two with the occasional extra 8th note added to a bar. So it also has some of that "jumpiness", but by this point in Genesis' career the jumpiness is an integral part of the structure, rather than (again, just my opinion) a manifestation of wandering musical concepts. I don't think anyone could listen to that song and think it's not a coherent musical idea.

Thinking of Trick of the Tail, maybe "Blue Girls" is a little disjointed...but again I think it was intentional to the composition. And certainly "Los Endos" jumps around a bit, but that was supposed to be a sort of reprise of many of the themes of the whole album, so they were just "having fun with it".

And if you listen closely, at the end of Los Endos there's a little reprise from Supper's Ready - a vocal line that sits deep in the mix with a lot of echo: "There's an Angel standing in the sun..."

In case you can't tell, I've been a BIG Genesis fan for a LONG time!

aceonbass · Post by **aceonbass** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:00 pm

That "jumpiness" would seem to be a basic charactoristic of progressive rock in general, and, one of the qualities I like about that sort of music. I suppose one could listen to "We Can't Dance". Not much jumpiness there.

seabass · Post by **seabass** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 2:41 pm

Ed, what is 'Blue Girls'? I'm a long time fan of Gabriel / Genesis and Trick is one of my favorite Genesis albums but I never heard of Blue Girls. Am I missing something here.........
That doubleneck that Rutherford played was a Shergold.

edski · Post by **edski** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:41 pm

"Blue girls come in every size...

Some are wise and some otherwise

They've got pretty blue eyes"

Well, looking at the CD, it's really named "Ripples". Oops.

I can remember how to play it, but not it's name.

Man, I think too much!

revolver323 · Post by **revolver323** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 5:11 pm

Moog Taurus pedals are difficult to play much on except drones unless you sit on a stool and use both feet. The Taurus setting is capable of Richter readings. Mike used them a good bit when he played 12 string, then switched to bass for the fast bits. I wouldn't doubt that Tony Banks played bass on synth at times as well. I saw the first Gabriel-less tour with Bill Bruford on drums in 1976, I think, then went out and ordered a set of Taurus pedals the next day.

henry5 · Post by **henry5** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:38 am

Quote -"That "jumpiness" would seem to be a basic characteristic of progressive rock in general, and, one of the qualities I like about that sort of music".

Me too. I love the cinematic quality of Prog, which can take you through many differing moods, and not always smoothly. Of course many of the best prog tunes were actually written in sections ("Willow Farm" being dropped into Supper's Ready being a good example) but I love the way that the many parts usually make such an interesting whole.

BTW Ed, Genesis were the first band (bar the Beatles when I was 8 and Abba at about 11) that I was ever into. "Seconds Out" is easily my most played album/cd.

levykev · Post by **levykev** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:57 am

love "seconds out"! "genesis live" is my personal fave. classic stuff.

jon · Post by **jon** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:58 pm

From Wind & Wuthering onwards, Mike played the Shergold doubleneck. Prior to that the custom Ric (SEBTP tour), the Microfret/Ric (Lamb tour) and the Dick Knight (ATOTT tour). There's an article mostly about the Shergold here

bobcat · Post by **bobcat** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:19 pm

I actually don't hear any of that "jumpiness" on "Selling England By The Pound" that appears a lot on "Foxtrot" and all over "Nursery Cryme". "Selling . . ." just feels so seamless, even when they do characteristically "jumpy" things, like in "The Battle of Epping Forest" when the Reverend intoduces himself. But, like, "Dancing With The Moonlit Knight" actually feels quite seamless to me. Not that one is better or worse . . . I love the jumpiness of "Watcher of the Skies" and "Get 'Em Out By Friday" . . . the only place where I didn't like it was "The Musical Box" . . . but it seems that no matter what they did, it was always undeniably Genesis.

But yeah . . . I LOVE the tone that Rutherford had on "Lamb". What exactly were Microfret basses? Who were they made by, when, where, etc.?