Nameplate exchange policy changed?

ol_reb · Post by **ol_reb** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:58 am

If other than damaged.....why would I want to swap a nameplate for the same plate I already have? That's nuts.

That was one of the nice things about the exchange, dressing up your Rick with your own personal touch.

I put a 660 vintage on my 650 Monty and it looks killer! (Apparently I got in under the wire)

Now, 99% Rick owners KNOW my 650 isn't a 660. And Joe blow average public doesn't know the difference much less care.

I understand protecting the trademark and such. But exchanging nameplates for different ones doesn't infringe on their trademark or hurt Rickenbacker one iota.

Okay, y'all can cream me now. Just my two ¢.

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:42 am

David: Exchanging nameplates indiscriminately may allow the unscrupulous to pass off a 360/12V64 as a 360/12C63.

This, fraudlent act, I would argue, will most certainly hurt Rickenbacker and all those persons who have put their trust in the Rickenbacker name to produce the "genuine" article.

Your are exactly right, "Joe blow average" who buys a Rickenbacker may not know the difference, but I promise you that he does care if he has been tricked into buying something that is not what he thought it was. Imagine finding out that the instrument that you have paid top dollar for is not what it was made out to be.

In the end, this could indeed be a very big deal.

BobKat · Post by **BobKat** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:03 am

I must say that there is some hair-splitting going on here, in my opinion.

All collectible guitars suffer from this possibility. People can change parts to make a recent model appear to be vintage, or for a recent model to be a more exclusive model.

In the case of the c63/v64 argument presented here, I maintain this: if someone is able to tell the difference between a c63 and a v64 based upon the nameplate, and is using that for their basis of identifying the guitar, then they are probably also savvy enough to identify the myriad of other differences between the two guitars, more noticeably the red fretboard dots, tuners, headstock shape, etc...the head shape is a REAL kicker. It's dead obvious that the comparison will yield the answer.

It's my humble opinion that the nameplate exchange issue has become a beast all its own. No amount of restrictions will stop fakers. They'll find a way. It only hurts the people who legitimately wish to customize their Rickenbackers.

leftyguitars · Post by **leftyguitars** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:05 am

Having never seen them side by side, is the truss rod cover the only obvious difference between a 360/12v64 and a 360/12c63?

Edit - Cross post.

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 2:24 am

Bob: I appreciate your points here. I did not mean to say that the people would use the nameplate exclusively to differentiate instruments, just that it is an example of what might take place.

The fakers will always be there, I agree, but there is no point making it easier by allowing the sale of trussrod covers outright, for example.

I am sure that RIC will come up with a solution to nameplate issue before too long as it has seemed to have taken on a life of its own at this point.

ted_williams · Post by **ted_williams** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:57 am

In the case of the V64 vs. C63, wasn't there a couple years between the end of V64 production and the start of C63 production? Just look at the s/n to tell the difference.

webhead · Post by **webhead** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:59 am

I think there are also other differences with the 360/12c63 vs the v64. Isn't there a body and headstock design difference? I didn't think it was just the nameplate. The only guitar I could see that could be mislead to believe for another model would be the 325VB/JL vs the C64. It looks to me to be the same guitar.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:01 am

If other than damaged.....why would I want to swap a nameplate for the same plate I already have? That's nuts

David, you CAN swap for a different plate; no one said you can't. But we certainly aren't going to produce and continue to stock every plate ever made, i.e. for models that are discontinued.

I am sure that RIC will come up with a solution to nameplate issue before too long as it has seemed to have taken on a life of its own at this point.

If this is going to continue being controversial, then I guess that stopping selling plates completely and then taking the first counterfeiter to Federal Court as an example might be even more so; that's kinda where this discussion is pushing me. We haven't gone this route previously in order to be accomodating.

tony_carey · Post by **tony_carey** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:09 am

John, although the latter part of your post is slightly worrying, at least to those of us who just like to customise our gtrs in a small way (gold bits, in my case), it is really great to have your input on this (& other) issues. You offer a valuable insight into your world that we all appreciate.

I know we whinge a bit sometimes, but only 'cause we care......

jeff_ulmer · Post by **jeff_ulmer** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:37 am

John: You certainly should try to prosecute counterfeiters - if you can find them - but I don't see how further restricting name plate sales is going to do anything but fuel a counterfeit market and make otherwise honest people who would love to support your company (and have by buying your guitars) look to alternatives. If there is money to be made counterfeiting, it will happen, no matter how many you take to court. The problem simply doesn't exist if Ric continues to offer exchanges, or better yet, simply allow sales.

ben_hall · Post by **ben_hall** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:35 am

So if the policy was is that you send us any plate, we'll exchange it for any plate. For someone making fake Ricks, it's a heck of a lot easier to buy a standard 330 plate off of Ebay and send it in for the rare 660/12 plate they can't seem to find anywhere than to actually fabricate a fake nameplate that very rarely passes for an original.

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:44 am

Ben: As my old geometry teacher used to say QED.

webhead · Post by **webhead** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:52 am

Here's my 2 cents..

I think taking the pirate idiots to court would probably set an example. Look what it did for the recording industry with all those downloaders... Check out the bootleg industry, can you find an original silver pressed disc without having it sent in from Japan or something like that? Not really.. Even Ebay is cracking down by removing auctions of that sort.

I see where Mr Hall is thinking.. He's right. Even though we may disagree, he is protecting the company. I can respect that... There are just too many people out there that will do anything to make a buck.

atomic_punk · Post by **atomic_punk** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:19 am

Look what it did for the recording industry with all those downloaders...

Actually, the way I see it, that turned out to be a boom because now they are getting paid for their downloads. A lot of people are making a lot of money off of downloads, ringtones, IPods and the like. They used technology to their advantage.

jeff_ulmer · Post by **jeff_ulmer** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:48 am

"So if the policy was is that you send us any plate, we'll exchange it for any plate."

That doesn't necessarily have to be the policy. You could restrict exchanges to the same type of guitar (ie white bass plate for black bass plate), and exclude plates from special editions unless the plate exchanged was the same type.

My point is that removing the ability for legitimate users to dress their guitars with a different plate (which really comes down to a color option) is only going to encourage more fakes. It isn't like these things are all that hard to fabricate in the first place with the technology available today.

The other option would be to expand the options on new guitar orders allowing for different plastic (instead of a BT option, have a BP option that uses black pickguard/plate for example, or GP with gold). This could encourage new orders while also satisfying the demand for "custom" guitars.

I'm sure that with the help of this forum (if you wanted our input) you could come up with a policy that keeps end users happy, makes you money and provides a disincentive for third parties to start manufacturing bogus parts.

I fully understand the concern over entirely fake instruments (whose makers should be prosecuted, although I suspect it would be hard to do so when dealing with foreign countries who don't respect US trademarks), but those are not going to go away just because the plates may be difficult to obtain or manufacture. I can't see someone building a 360 copy being unwilling to do some work - the name plate is the least of their challenges.

As for the downloading analogy, I don't see that the illegal nature has been curbed at all, just driven back underground. I find illegal, for pay, versions of my recordings being offered all over the place, specifically Russia. No amount of litigation is going to remove these. The only realistic strategy for encouraging legitimate sales is to continue to offer a superior product, along with great customer service so people want to support the product, and that includes the abillity to order legitimate replacement parts if applicable.