Nameplate exchange policy changed?

[doctorwho]

Don said:

... Even Ebay is cracking down by removing auctions of that sort ...

I hate to always carp on eBay, but, as I've said before, they don't do enough to stop the illegal trade going on. Case in point: just last week, I was looking on eBay for the Hal Leonard complete Beatles music book, and I saw a pdf version for sale (more than one listing, including some completed ones by the same seller). Intrigued by that and wondering how much it listed for, I went to the HL website ... and found nothing about such a version. I contacted HL about it (infernal e-form to fill out!), and after a few days I got the reply: no such authorized version, so the eBay listing was an illegal, copyright-infringing item. My contention is that instead of me doing eBay's homework for them, they should be actively checking for such things themseleves and taking appropriate actions, including criminal charges against the perps.

Sorry for being on the soapbox yet again!

[jeff_ulmer]

Gary, it has always been the responsibility of the copyright/trademark owner to police their holdings, eBay just concentrates the fake trade. It's pretty easy for a property owner to have bogus listings removed, I do it all the time with bootleg product. To be realistic, there is no way that eBay would have the ability to screen listings given the complexity of trademark/copyright concerns. Fake strats are legal, fake Rics aren't, but to some office clerk at eBay they both look like guitars. When you consider the millions of items being posted across every conceivable product category, it would be impossible to weed out the fakes from the real ones without the property owners being involved.

[tony_carey]

Just last week, three Chinese copies of a friends ad, were listed on an ebay one day auction (a 381). I reported it, as did my friend. All three fake auctions were aloud to run the duration!!!!!

How long does it take...even when we do the work for them?

[ben_hall]

I don't think anyone is so naive as to think all counterfeiting can be prevented, but I'd imagine it's better to have good honest people with no ulterior motives make fake plates to put on their real guitars than to see shady individuals put real plates that we sent them on their fake guitars that they plan to sell. Also, I don't see how making people wait 3 years for a guitar with black parts would prevent people from making one themselves...

[jeff_ulmer]

"see shady individuals put real plates that we sent them on their fake guitars that they plan to sell."

The same holds true for any other part that it would be easier to buy than counterfeit, but that would mean basically shutting off any parts supply - meaning those who had parts break or fail out of warranty would wind up with useless/crippled instruments (tailpiece failures, pickup failures) - not a situation you will find a very warm reception to from the user base. I guess this goes to the whole philosophy of protectionism versus supplying the demand. Sure, you'll have some people abusing the system, but I suspect more people wouldn't. For those who are counterfeiting or commiting fraud you have legal recourse, at least wherever your patents and trademarks are enforceable. If a buyer gets ****** off because they bought a fake it isn't Ric's fault, you list the authorized dealers on your site, and like any other second hand purchase, buyer beware.

It also comes down to whether the company wants to pour resources into policing and litigating, which ultimately only costs you money, or using those resources to improve productivity to satisfy demand so it doesn't take 3 years to get a guitar. I realise you do have to take action when it is necessary, but it appears, at least to me, that Ric is trying to prevent fakes at the expense of legitimate customers with legitimate needs.

There is also the possibility of licensing parts out to a third party if the management of accessories is too taxing on the staff levels you have.

Anyhow, this is another topic that really doesn't apply to me anymore, so I'll just leave it there.

[ben_hall]

Not quite, because the nameplate actually has the company logo on it and goes a longer way to "legitimize" a fake guitar than just a pair of toasters or pickguards do. Don't throw nameplates into the same category as vintage knobs or pickguards.

>Sure, you'll have some people abusing the system, but I suspect more people wouldn't.

Given that I actually work here and see fake nameplates come back for "exchanges", I suspect I might have a little more inside info than you in this department...

>There is also the possibility of licensing parts out to a third party if the management of accessories is too taxing on the staff levels you have.

Uh yeah, we know, thanks.

[aceonbass]

Since used nameplates usually go for $100.00 and up on Ebay and than require an additional fee of $30.00 or so to get a replacement from RIC, why doesn't RIC just register the buyers serial number and charge $100.00 per plate when no exchange is sent in. I could(gulp)live with that and I would think it would really slow down the "faker" market. Besides, just think of all the money RIC would make. I need three truss rod covers.

[route66guitars]

Nearly every guitar shop I visited in the UK last month had fake '1993' or '1996' models sold under several different brands. While this is almost unheard of in the U.S., I can see how this is a major problem in the rest of the world.

Having said (written?) that, it is a shame that RIC doesn't put more trust in their authorized dealers to determine who should be allowed to buy factory replacement parts. Obviously this is the point of purchase where it could be determined if the instrument in question is legitimate. Obviously if an authorized dealer can't tell the difference, or won't stick to a reasonable company policy regarding the sale of replacement parts then they risk losing their dealership.

I used to buy replacements for restorations, as well as ordering gold pickguard and name plate sets with most of the vintage reissues I sold, back in the days when I was an authorized dealer. I never sold them to anyone for a copy, and can't imagine any legit dealer doing it.

[johnhall]

can't imagine any legit dealer doing it.

I can and probably could give you the names.

[route66guitars]

Hi John.

I guess I should have said 'honest' or 'reputable' instead of legit...

It's unfortunate that dealers of high end instruments don't hold themselves to a higher standard than that.

[ol_reb]

This topic has definitely taken a life of it's own. And for me, has been interesting as all get out due to all of the valid points made by everyone.

There's no doubt the nameplate goes alot further in "legitimizing" a fake guitar. (As pointed out by Ben) Even one fake Rick is one too many no doubt.

But as a suggestion, if you wanted to turn in a nameplate, it could be as simple as Rickenbacker requiring you to issue the serial number of your guitar before the exchange so they could at least verify that they manufactured the guitar.

Sure, folks could go into a store and pull the serial # off of a new Rick and claim they owned it; and this wouldn't get rid of all the fakers by any means, but it would at least be a start and a simple requirement that all legit owners would, should & could abide by.

Really, this topic could explode into database development regarding who bought what and even go further into property rights, customer versus manufacturer on so on.

But make no mistake, Rickenbacker is in the drivers seat as far as calling the shots as is their right in regards to trademark protection.

So with all this said, Mr. Hall, can I send y'all my four Ric nameplates get some some vintage white ones?? Oops wait a minute, I just need three, I have the 660 vintage on my Monty 650. Which I might add looks incredible. ;>)