Real Love vs. Free as a Bird
I understand your point Mick. I wouldn't necessarily argue with that.
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studiotwosession
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Y'know, I was listening to the demo of John's Real Love, the one Jeff Lynne used to record the Beatles version. It's remarkably clear, no massive noise or hum on it as Lynne claimed, John's voice is upfront, albeit double tracked across two tape recorders. I did not hear any appreciable clicks and pops. And while I understand there is a different standard for releasing a professional recording, when you read his comments about what he had to go through just to make Real Love presentable, it doesn't really hold up.
Additionally, there are earlier takes, full takes, without the rhythm machine where John's voice is VERY up front, and particularly sweet sounding. I wonder why these alternate takes were not mined to increase the vocal presence on the Beatles Real Love, rather than have Macca whisper along in the background. I did it in my home studio in about 30 min and - well, there's John's voice, distinctly less distant and tin-y.
Jeff Lynne needed to rise to this occasion, realize who he was dealing with and abandon the same idiosyncratic production techniques (uggh, that bloody snare sound!) he used on Wilbury's/GH 1980's material. This was a once in a lifetime opportunity and his production dragged it down into the mundane.
That being said, I am a fan of the two songs, I think George, Paul and Ringo did a good job, DESPITE the sonic vanilla from Lynne.
Additionally, there are earlier takes, full takes, without the rhythm machine where John's voice is VERY up front, and particularly sweet sounding. I wonder why these alternate takes were not mined to increase the vocal presence on the Beatles Real Love, rather than have Macca whisper along in the background. I did it in my home studio in about 30 min and - well, there's John's voice, distinctly less distant and tin-y.
Jeff Lynne needed to rise to this occasion, realize who he was dealing with and abandon the same idiosyncratic production techniques (uggh, that bloody snare sound!) he used on Wilbury's/GH 1980's material. This was a once in a lifetime opportunity and his production dragged it down into the mundane.
That being said, I am a fan of the two songs, I think George, Paul and Ringo did a good job, DESPITE the sonic vanilla from Lynne.
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studiotwosession
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Ahhh..the notorious snare sound of Mr. Jeff Lynne.
The weird thing is, save the fabs tracks, most of what people mean when they talk about this are tracks Lynne produced in the 80s, and when it comes to bad 80s snare sounds (if those 4 words aren't in themselves redundant) many certainly did a lot worst than Lynne's (listen to any dreaded pop metal from that era, or most of the pop tracks from then.)
Was there some rule that every record in the 80s had to be grossly, if not also tastelessly, overproduced?
I guess the trouble is, by the 90s, when people had dumped that sound lock stock and barrel, Lynne was loving it.
E.L.No.
The weird thing is, save the fabs tracks, most of what people mean when they talk about this are tracks Lynne produced in the 80s, and when it comes to bad 80s snare sounds (if those 4 words aren't in themselves redundant) many certainly did a lot worst than Lynne's (listen to any dreaded pop metal from that era, or most of the pop tracks from then.)
Was there some rule that every record in the 80s had to be grossly, if not also tastelessly, overproduced?
I guess the trouble is, by the 90s, when people had dumped that sound lock stock and barrel, Lynne was loving it.
E.L.No.
This is off the record
Right, no rules at all, but wouldn't you just want to dump all your "tried & true" worn out ideas when working with THE BEATLES, in the 1990's? The mind boggles.
And I don't find his snare the most egregious of the 80's BY FAR, but why (WHY!!??) make Ringo Starr sound like any studio drummer (where IS Andy White these days anyway???) circa 80's or 90's pop radio. I think Ringo being Ringo, his personality some how comes through.
I think he recorded George's slide guitar playing quite well. But as a whole, the only thing he didn't screw up on these tracks are the vocal harmonies and only because he simply COULDN'T. (I guess he could have sang with them...uggghhhhh).
There were so many possibilities, even with the fidelity issues of Lennon's tapes. Which could have been addressed more effectively.
I don't hate Jeff Lynne, I just think he BLEW the biggest opportunity any producer has had since...well...George Martin.
I hear those Lynneflams on the snare to open FAAB and I want to beat him senselessly about the head with Macca's stand up bass.
Oh well....
And I don't find his snare the most egregious of the 80's BY FAR, but why (WHY!!??) make Ringo Starr sound like any studio drummer (where IS Andy White these days anyway???) circa 80's or 90's pop radio. I think Ringo being Ringo, his personality some how comes through.
I think he recorded George's slide guitar playing quite well. But as a whole, the only thing he didn't screw up on these tracks are the vocal harmonies and only because he simply COULDN'T. (I guess he could have sang with them...uggghhhhh).
There were so many possibilities, even with the fidelity issues of Lennon's tapes. Which could have been addressed more effectively.
I don't hate Jeff Lynne, I just think he BLEW the biggest opportunity any producer has had since...well...George Martin.
I hear those Lynneflams on the snare to open FAAB and I want to beat him senselessly about the head with Macca's stand up bass.
Oh well....
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scottpro1969
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studiotwosession
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I agree with everyone on the beard. That certainly is an ongoing problem.
Yes indeed - and WHAT ABOUT Flaming Pie? Do we need Jeff Lynne's harmonies on Little Willow? I don't know how much he had to do with that album, but I'm sure if you took it track by track his contributions would stand out like a sore thumb.
Glenn - You are right about the Def Leppard/Hysteria guitar sound on FAAB, just another example of a horrendous choice - it couldn't be LESS Beatlesque.
I don't know - in '85, maybe George Martin would have produced and someone would have given a **** about the fidelity of Lennon's tapes. Certainly they were ten years younger, with ten years less tape damage. Of course, I guess it never occurred to Mr. Lynne to check and see if earlier generation sources were in existence. Who knows what Yoko gave them?The source of FAAB and Real Love, both aired on the Lost Lennon tapes in the 80's and preserved at the time by numerous high fidelity tapers are fairly pristine.
Not all of Lennon's demos are in the best of shape, but the two versions I've heard of FAAB and RL "naked" sound like a first year studio engineer could have made them work. And, as I said before, there were multiple takes which could have been used to beef up the final demo. One can do ANYTHING in Pro-tools these days.
Oh my, this seems to have become quite a rant. Seems to me, though,, with the incredibly sad passing of GH, this has been sticking in my side for a while - that whole missed opportunity thing again.
And that bloody beard. And hat.
Yes indeed - and WHAT ABOUT Flaming Pie? Do we need Jeff Lynne's harmonies on Little Willow? I don't know how much he had to do with that album, but I'm sure if you took it track by track his contributions would stand out like a sore thumb.
Glenn - You are right about the Def Leppard/Hysteria guitar sound on FAAB, just another example of a horrendous choice - it couldn't be LESS Beatlesque.
I don't know - in '85, maybe George Martin would have produced and someone would have given a **** about the fidelity of Lennon's tapes. Certainly they were ten years younger, with ten years less tape damage. Of course, I guess it never occurred to Mr. Lynne to check and see if earlier generation sources were in existence. Who knows what Yoko gave them?The source of FAAB and Real Love, both aired on the Lost Lennon tapes in the 80's and preserved at the time by numerous high fidelity tapers are fairly pristine.
Not all of Lennon's demos are in the best of shape, but the two versions I've heard of FAAB and RL "naked" sound like a first year studio engineer could have made them work. And, as I said before, there were multiple takes which could have been used to beef up the final demo. One can do ANYTHING in Pro-tools these days.
Oh my, this seems to have become quite a rant. Seems to me, though,, with the incredibly sad passing of GH, this has been sticking in my side for a while - that whole missed opportunity thing again.
And that bloody beard. And hat.
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studiotwosession
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Like someone said, there was politics afoot.
Supposedly Macca let Harrison go with Beard as a sort of peace offering because Harri made no sercret of his rows with Macca over the years, not a good reason to go with Beard.
It is really funny how conservative the Fabs were with producers from '69 on.
Lennon worked with Spector for all the wrong reasons (Spector was a "name" in the industry) even though his mixes always blew and his pop stylings were well out of date by the time Lennon picked him (plus Lennon should have known better after Let It Be. Perhaps his defense of the latter was just another part of John's row with Macca around the time of the breakup.)
Once they were all 30 or so, they were all intent on working with guys who'd sold millions (this alone should have been suspect to artists in the first place) instead of guys who they just knew were good, young and/or hungry.
Lennon has that quote somewhere, talking about how they were in decline once they stopped following what was going on. Clearly this was true of the producers they chose. And once Lennon started talking in admiration of ELO.
Supposedly Macca let Harrison go with Beard as a sort of peace offering because Harri made no sercret of his rows with Macca over the years, not a good reason to go with Beard.
It is really funny how conservative the Fabs were with producers from '69 on.
Lennon worked with Spector for all the wrong reasons (Spector was a "name" in the industry) even though his mixes always blew and his pop stylings were well out of date by the time Lennon picked him (plus Lennon should have known better after Let It Be. Perhaps his defense of the latter was just another part of John's row with Macca around the time of the breakup.)
Once they were all 30 or so, they were all intent on working with guys who'd sold millions (this alone should have been suspect to artists in the first place) instead of guys who they just knew were good, young and/or hungry.
Lennon has that quote somewhere, talking about how they were in decline once they stopped following what was going on. Clearly this was true of the producers they chose. And once Lennon started talking in admiration of ELO.
This is off the record
Has anyone been to an ELO concert? I attended one in the 70's. They were phenomenal. Better in fact than their records.
Personally, I can see why John Lennon was thoroughly impressed with them.
Personally, I can see why John Lennon was thoroughly impressed with them.
“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” - Albert Einstein
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother" - Albert Einstein
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother" - Albert Einstein
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studiotwosession
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In 77 or 78 Rolling Stone did a report on a then recent ELO tour that shamed them.
It revealed that a considerable portion of the audio of their performances on their (then) most recent tour was actually on tape. There may have been a class action suit as well (of course, this was in the pre-Madonna days when it was considered extremely poor taste to fake portions of your live shows.)
Anyway, this was not very impressive if you ask me. But I remember it as it was highly memorable.
I guess Lennon had pretty much withdrawn from the biz at that point. He probably was no longer reading music pubs.
Harrison liked ELO, as well as the Black Crows. This just shows me that, in their later years, their choices in bands was as off as their choices in producers.
It revealed that a considerable portion of the audio of their performances on their (then) most recent tour was actually on tape. There may have been a class action suit as well (of course, this was in the pre-Madonna days when it was considered extremely poor taste to fake portions of your live shows.)
Anyway, this was not very impressive if you ask me. But I remember it as it was highly memorable.
I guess Lennon had pretty much withdrawn from the biz at that point. He probably was no longer reading music pubs.
Harrison liked ELO, as well as the Black Crows. This just shows me that, in their later years, their choices in bands was as off as their choices in producers.
This is off the record
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