John as a guitarist?

westtexasrickenbacker · Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:55 am

I like his rhythym work and his chord choices were fantastic.

I think his playing is under-rated. Not a great technical guy, but very creative and a super composer.

Want input from better guitarists than me, though.

apollo11 · Post by **apollo11** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:24 am

HIs playing seems to come completely from his soul---there is always trememdous feeling in whatever he played on the guitar. Probably my favorite Beatles guitar solo is done by John, from I Want You (She's So Heavy). Grit, warmth, jazz, rock, all in that one solo.

randyz · Post by **randyz** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:51 am

I'm probably not a better guitarist than anybody, but Lennon's always been a favorite guitarist of mine. I suppose we'll never know exactly which guitar parts he played on later Beatle albums, but his playing on songs like 'You Can't Do That' and 'All My Loving' really does it for me. Lennon himself knew that he wasn't a technical guitarist, but he once said he knew how to make a guitar "howl and move". My younger brother used to ask me why I didn't take guitar lessons. I'd say, "John never took lessons" and he'd say, "Yes, but he had talent".

studiotwosession · Post by **studiotwosession** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:35 am

Technical-schmectical.

Lennon's quote, in reference to their "technical" playing, and Ringo's specifically, is meaningless.

I'm surprised it's referred to as often as it is. They were the best band in the world. They couldn't have been as great if they were as a group if they hadn't have been as great as they were as individual players.

And Lennon kept getting better. His finger picking on the White Album was enhanced by the acoustic jams he had with Donovan in India.

westtexasrickenbacker · Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:27 pm

Good points, Glenn.

And Randy, that type of insult would be so typical of a brother, isn't it.

I love the Rythym track to "All My Loving" I can't play it without the darn pick flying out of my hand somewhere in the middle of the song.

What is the quick picking technique called? I've always been lousey at it. Sweaty fingers.

I'll tell you, John wasn't technical, but his and McCartney's chords and melodies were very advanced. Particularly for two non-schooled guys. Pure musical genius.

congerz83 · Post by **congerz83** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:34 pm

One word...... Revolution.

studiotwosession · Post by **studiotwosession** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:31 pm

>>I'll tell you, John wasn't technical...<<

I disagree. All My Loving is a perfect example of him playing a not just a long melody but playing it in a more complicated way than would otherwise be necessary (after all, it would still be a great song had he played something that was less innovative and complex.)

Yet he played it with perfection, technically and otherwise.

The middle eight of Don't Let Me Down (one of the most beautiful bridges any of them ever wrote, and a fairly intricate little series of notes smack dab in the middle of an otherwise simple series of chords, and which is played in sections, split up between the vocal) is also pulled off to perfection.

The leads in And Your Bird Can Sing, if he didn't play them it's a fair bet he had a hand in coming up with them, which means he figured them out on the neck of something, and they are very exacting (which is of course a staple of so many Beatles songs) and ended up being a track that is highly technical for any guitarist to pull off.

The lead in Honey Pie, same thing, worked out and fits the space perfectly.

Like the rest of them who couldn't write, and who were very much self taught, this doesn't mean that one's not a gifted player, technically or otherwise.

Which proves that Lennon's statement is absolute rubbish, no matter how often Macca or anyone else repeats it.

Sure Clapton and other 60s school soloists were virtuosos. But so much of what those guys played is blues, which is far more simple than pop, especially Beatles like pop, and leaves far more space for improvised genius, which isn't any more "technical" to achieve than sweet little worked out pop licks, even if those guys dished it out in a flashier way than the Beatles usual understated delivery.

All through the Anthology they dis' their own playing, even Macca, which is laughable. Because as Pete Townshend once wrote, "it's all there on the vinyl."

My Dad once said the best baseball players are great because they make hard things look easy. The Beatles were the same way. You'd think so many of their songs are easy. Because they're short in length. And beacause they just seem that way.

But as anyone knows who's played them, there usually is an awful lot going on within them yet they can end inside of two minutes, and many times it was John on guitar.

That's doing something that's hard and making it look easy. And you can't do that without being great, technically, even if all you know about it is in your head and your hands.

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:38 pm

Well said Glenn.
Now lets all have a smoke.

davclr · Post by **davclr** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:03 pm

Well put about "All My Loving!"

Also I LOVE to listen to the 1961 Bert Kaemfurt produced "Cry for a Shadow."

John's original 325 1958 Capri of course opens this historic song and is very prominent and easily heard throughout.
It gives a great example of JWL's skilled rythym playing even during this 1961-pre-fame time frame as well as showcases the sound of this forever iconic unique Ric!

beatlefreak · Post by **beatlefreak** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:03 pm

John also did the solo on "Get Back" and played the slide guitar on George's "For You Blue". Both simple - yet highly effective.

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:15 pm

>>They couldn't have been as great if they were as a group if they hadn't have been as great as they were as individual players.

Well, I'd have to respectfully disagree. Thats the whole thing about a band... that you dont need any of the players to be super duper in order to sound good. The main thing is that you play decently and play well together.

I think that Paul was (is) a super bass player but I dont think that either John or George were ever top notch guitarists (even in their later days). Certainly I dont think you can put George in the same league as a Clapton, for instance.... (but then not many are).

Consider the early Beatle hits: they sounded great not because of any great instrument playing. The songs sounded great because of *GREAT song writing *great harmonies *incredibly tight group togetherness *good and heartfelt instrument playing *and the INCREDIBLE energy that they SOMEHOW were able to create.

In the early days nobody ever acused the Beatles of being virtuoso instrumentationalists (hows THAT for a long-*** mis-spelled word?), but their OVERALL SOUND as a group was fantastic and will live forever.

davclr · Post by **davclr** » Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:21 pm

Give me break!
Clapton was a gimmicky guitarist, never a GREAT guitarist.

If you're looking for a great guitarist, try Glenn Campbell (child virtuoso and radio star as small boy) and as a reknown session musician who's played on a countless number of huge big hit professional recording sessions and can play any axe thrown at him and ANY style of music imaginable (classical, folk, pop, contemporary, country, rock 'n roll) expertly.
Documented fact.

As far as the Beatles go, Yeah! totally ****** musicians.
And Jack Nicholas and Arnold Palmer were totally ****** skilless golfers.

Scastles · Post by **Scastles** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:05 am

Here's Glen after a hard day of session work...on a 30 pack

congerz83 · Post by **congerz83** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:12 am

I gotta disagree with that Clapton comment David. Sure I think he has sold out and gone too pop-ish, but listen to "Crossroads." If there was one song that showed his talent, it's that one.

studiotwosession · Post by **studiotwosession** » Sat Aug 19, 2006 3:39 am

>>Well, I'd have to respectfully disagree. That's the whole thing about a band... that you dont need any of the players to be super duper in order to sound good. The main thing is that you play decently and play well together. <<

In general, I agree. However, we're not talking about some run-of-the-mill band, or even a very good band. We're talking about the Beatles.

Sure, in certain tunes, sometimes the individual isn't doing anything that is that special. But more times than with any other band, most or all of them were doing pretty amazing stuff, even though they tended not to try and outplay themselves or anyone else, Lennon included.

More examples of Lennon's chops are I Feel Fine and Day Tripper.

Compare the first to anything that had come previously in rock, or anything that was out at the same time, and Lennon is arguably one of the best rock guitarists in history to that point in time based on that lick alone (and that's not to put down the innovations of Scotty Moore, or look past the contributions of Chet Atkins, though he was, after all, more of a country and then pop player than anything else.)

And the latter is still one of the most best riffs in rock ever. So it's not played as fast as Layla. It wouldn't have been as good if it had been. (And even Clapton only had one Layla.)

And Your Bird Can Sing features even more complex runs played as fast. And it was recorded four or five years earlier.

In the mid 60s, as players, none of the Beatles took a back seat to anyone in the playing dept. In fact, in '64, they blew the Stones, etc., off the stage. Some of that was Lennon.

David's right about Campbell. The guy was a great player for sure. But he was mainly just a player. Coming up with the licks is the real achievement.