John as a guitarist?

[davclr]

QUOTE
"Here's Glen after a hard day of session work...on a 30 pack"
END QUOTE

Naw!
In the pic Glen had just put on and was previewing a Eric Clapton CD on his home stereo that someone had sent him.

[brammy]

>More examples of Lennon's chops are I Feel Fine and Day Tripper.

I recently learned 'I Feel Fine' and can now play it slick as can be... its so much fun... I just cant stop playing that riff. As for Day Tripper, it's George who plays the riffs. John's rhythm work on that song is good (as usual) but nothing to write home about.

>>the contributions of Chet Atkins,

I think that helps make my point. John was great, and could really express himself well with his little 325... but as for technical ability and knowledge of music theory and guitar playing ability, Chet Atkins was one of the all-time greats. Very few players are even in the same stratosphere as Atkins (no matter what style) and that certainly includes Lennon. And I bet that John would be the first to admit it.

I agree that the riff(s) on 'And Your Bird Can Sing' were fantastic and ground-breaking. But thats also my point... it was the Beatle's writing (often in collaboration with George Martin) that in large part made them fantastic. AYBCS is not that hard to play, but it is still one of the all-time great riffs.

STONES? Dont get me wrong, in the age-old debate of Beatles vs Stones I've come down on the Beatles side every time, but you cant seriously say that George was a better rock guitarist than Keef.

I agree that Campbell was a great player and that he was mainly just a player, and that coming up with the licks is the real achievement. Thats my point. The Beatles were such great writers and so inventive and so melodic and it is those skills that make them legends... not their technical guitar playing ability.

In all this discussion, lets not forget that in the studio, Paul was also a guitar player for the Beatles as well as bass player. And a damned good guitar player at that.

All in all, I think that we're agreeing more than disagreeing.

[basshawk]

Alex, if memory serves me correctly, that picking technique Donovan showed Lennon is called the "Travis method".

[studiotwosession]

>>As for Day Tripper, it's George who plays the riffs.<<

Yep. After John taught them to George (at least the signature riff.) George may well have done the solo himself.

But I bet ten bucks Lennon came in with the lick when he came in with the song. Just like he had the lick for I Feel Fine. Only reason he didn't play it in Tripper is he's singing at the same time, and, well, George was there.

Thus John writing the lick, and being more than capable of playing it, was indeed "something to write home about."

>>... but as for technical ability and knowledge of music theory and guitar playing ability, Chet Atkins was one of the all-time greats.<<

Knowledge of music theory? There's a book, Day Tripper, about the '66 Beatles US tour. In it the author, who was on the road with them at the time, had the chance to sit down one evening and spin some of what was then current pop vinyl with Lennon.

He said it was extraordinary because Lennon could instantly break all the songs down to their influences and styles and deliver a fabulous critique, on first hearing.

In other words, he had an excellent knowledge of music theory (rock, and pop at least) despite the fact that he had no degree as such.

>>Very few players are even in the same stratosphere as Atkins (no matter what style) and that certainly includes Lennon. <<

Apples and oranges. Great as he was, no one puts Atkins in the rock guitarist category (and his ratio of pop to country was very slim.) Lennon played what he wanted to play, was quite good at it, "technically" as well as knew plenty about it.

>>But thats also my point... it was the Beatle's writing (often in collaboration with George Martin) that in large part made them fantastic. <<

Of course the Beatles were stellar songwriters. But their ability in this respect overshadowed their talents as players and singers, even in their own eyes (which I already pointed out is inane.)

We all know having a great song is only half the battle of making a great record. One has to have the band and the playing and vocal chops to complete the job.

The same thing was true with Elton John. At his peak, his success was always explained as being the result of the songs he wrote with Taupin. But the fact is, he had an amazing band... three other excellent players and singers with great chemistry who put their collective sound all over EJ records.

And once EJ fired two of them, EJ all but vanished from the scene. And he didn't emerge in a big way until he rehired them five years later.

The Beatles, even early on, were so good they could track an Isley Brothers song and make it twice as good as they could, the dfinitive version. You can't do that without being great "technically." And what other acts have done definitive versions of Beatles songs?

Had they not been so great delivering the goods via their own chops, Lennon and Macca would be compared more to Rogers and Hart types.

>>but you cant seriously say that George was a better rock guitarist than Keef. <<

Firstly, as a slide player George was second to none (as Clapton has pointed out.)

Secondly, Keef is a ****** Chuck Berry wannabe (which couldn't have been more obvious than during that atrocious Super Bowl performance.) In fact, he should have to pay Berry every time he picks up the guitar. Next to the work of Harrison and Townshend and others he's totally unoriginal.

Berry's style is so ingrained in what's left of his brain that he thinks he came up with it thus he's even tried to teach Chuck how to play it!

The best days of the Stones by far were with Mick Taylor, who incidentally came up with one of the best Stones guitar licks, Honkey Tonk Women (best drum track, too, with Kenny Jones substituting for Charlie.) And like most guys who did time with the Stones, Mick T. got a lot less credit than what was due.

Furthermore, not only were the Beatles were a far better live band than the Stones, it's clear the Stones were never a very good live band (and in fact many times have left evidence that they were downright lousy.)

>>The Beatles were such great writers and so inventive and so melodic and it is those skills that make them legends... not their technical guitar playing ability. <<

This is perception, not reality. They simply coudn't have been the best band in the world without being great players.

[kkm]

I used to think John was nothing special until I started trying to learn Beatles songs note for note (with help from Rob Ts Beatles to-a-tee DVDs).

Some of John's parts were very intricate. For me they are way harder than a lot of the 80s hair metal I started with when I first got into playing.

I believe being a good and tight rhythm player is a bigger challenge than soloing all day.

[Scastles]

>>The best days of the Stones by far were with Mick Taylor, who incidentally came up with one of the best Stones guitar licks, Honkey Tonk Women<<

Honky Tonk Women was Richards all the way. The song was recorded in early '69 . Taylor didn't join the Stones until a month before Brian's death, in July.

[revolver323]

The secret to being a great player is knowing what NOT to play. Deceptively simple concept, hard as heck to pull off.

[studiotwosession]

>>Honky Tonk Women was Richards all the way. The song was recorded in early '69 . Taylor didn't join the Stones until a month before Brian's death, in July.<<

False. Richards said in an interview approximately ten years ago that it was Taylor's lick all the way.

[Scastles]

What interview? In what piece? I'll give you a tip of the hand if I were to read it in credible article or interview.

The song was recorded in March of '69. It's said Taylor was used to replace Brian's bits on the final master, in June, but nowhere have I read or heard of it being Taylor's lick all the way.

[studiotwosession]

It could have been Guitar Player or Musician. I remember where I was (working) at the time, which is where I read it, and I'm not sure if it was the same issues that said that Jones played drums (which I think was revealed by Mick.)

It revealed whatever tuning was used, and Keith talked about that. But I'm positive he said Taylor started that whole tune off.

I haven't read very much about the Stones, just a few articles and Wyman's book. Thus what I have is all the more memorable.

[cowboy_joe]

I think John Lennon's guitar playing is probably my favorite Beatles topic.....

I don't see all the semantic discussion over what constitutes technical--as a music theorist John, along with Paul and George, was quite brilliant. Beyond that, I'd call his playing inventive more than anything. He did not play lead very much, but when he did it was almost always something that fit perfectly. Playing rhythm, he had great strumming technique, and was not only fast but seemed to have the knack for putting strums in the most effective place possible.

What he did best of all was hold down the rhythm parts. He was always locked on to the song, and gave the others a lot of freedom to improvise.

[studiotwosession]

I really didn't mean to bag on Keef's playing. But I've never been that impressed with what he does. And I do believe that the Glimmer Twins benefitted greatly from the talents of others, in the composition department as well as the playing department but if you look at the labels it's nearly all Jagger/Richards, which can be deceiving.

To reiterate on John's playing, I think the guy certainly was impressive considering he never was a lead player. I think had he had to he could have played that role well after a few years of work.

[shamustwin]

I just heard the "Hollywood Bowl" album on the radio, maybe ten minutes ago. I have to say that Harrison's leads are great, he plays quite a few on his Rick 12, including Boys, and he does some cool bends as well.
They all were top of their form on this recording, and Lennon's solid as a rock. Still a great live band at this point.

I can't find anything about the Stones HTW in "According To The Rolling Stones" written by Mick, Keef, Charlie and Ronnie except Ronnie saying whenever he plays it he tries to pay homage to Mick Taylor's riffs (which could go either way as to who wrote the lead in). BTW, Charlie says the intro to HTW was a big mess of a timing mistake, which sounds wonderful IMO.

[stubby]

Here's what Wikipedia has to say on the matter, FWIW...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honky_Tonk_Women

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mick_Taylor

[studiotwosession]

Funny, nothing about Kenny Jones on drums.