Wake me from this nightmare. . ..

robj · Post by **robj** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 4:56 am

Fender very recently bought SWR and bought up the Sunn name a few years back. My guess is both names will fade away in time as their designs are included in Fender's amplifier lines.

How big does a company have to get, how much money does a company have to have, and how many competitors do they have to buy out? That's a rhetorical question of course. But it seems the answer to me is they can never have or do enough of any of these. When a company is Wall St. controlled, its grow or die.

Capitalism is certainly a double edged sword.

I commend John Hall and his father for avoiding taking their company in this direction and for continuing to design and manufacture great quality instruments. Sometimes smaller is better.

ken_james · Post by **ken_james** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:34 am

Another reason for privately held corporations. The major guitar corporations must be envious of how Ric has maintained their integrity over the years without CEO changovers and buyouts every few years.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:49 am

This is purely speculation on my part so don't hold me to it.

But my guess is that Fender, or more specifically Fender's major investors like Weston Presidio, are "fluffing out" their brand name portfolio in anticipation of an IPO to allow the current management, the most important of whom are over 70 years old, to cash out and retire. Weston Presidio (who's managing partner is also chairman of Jet Blue Airlines) have a long developed (and sucessful) business style of taking major positions in companies on behalf of their own investors such as Howard Schultz, slapping some lipstick on the pig, as the old expression goes, and cashing out with a tidy profit.

While the timing is wrong for an IPO now, if and when it did happen, where would that leave Fender, which then would have mainly fractional investors and no experienced senior management? Well, the remaining major investor at that point would be Roland, likely with a controlling interest. The rest is easy to figure.

Where would that leave all the other brand names acquired during the "fluff up"? Fading into history, as I see it.

It also bears remembering that the brand names being acquired are those that have had some cachet in the market at one time but are generally past prime and typically in some financial or mangerial difficulty.

As a practical matter, it's unlikely that there's an entity currently within the American music industry that could even conceivably afford to purchase a going, profitable, and debt-free firm like ourselves outside of Steinway and Harmon International.

corey · Post by **corey** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 5:49 am

Well, with Fender taking over Gretsch, that's one less guitar brand I have to keep track of. I'll just look around for the vintage stuff.

mayhem · Post by **mayhem** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 6:05 am

Thank you very much, John Hall, for explaining from a business perspective the hows and whys of Fenders recent actions.

Now I'm satisfied and comforted in knowing that I can rely on you (and RIC) for the quality and stability that I want.

Props and much love.

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 9:38 am

They're announcing Fender's takeover of PRS Guitars.

ricnvolved · Post by **ricnvolved** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 8:12 pm

Jerry-- Is that really true about Fender buying out PRS? It's surprising that Fender bought out SWR, though I'm not crying about it. I've always felt that SWR's product never really matched the hype. When David Nordschow left SWR to start up Eden, it was a good day for bass players. If not for my current (more portable) rig, I'd still be playing Eden.

Sunn's glory days were far in the past when Fender acquired rights to the name several years ago. I have an original vintage Sunn Solarus all-tube guitar amp with matching 2x15 cabinet still in excellent condition. Not all that great for rock, but it kicks *** in jazz and roots rock. My 1997SPC re-issue sounds great through it.

Anyway............. sounds like Fender is trying to take over the music world. And the Fender name is starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Mr. Hall's post was HIGHLY interesting, BTW.

dougp · Post by **dougp** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 8:39 am

"Anyway............. sounds like Fender is trying to take over the music world. And the Fender name is starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth."

... AND ... it sounds like Fender might sell itself out to Roland (another name that frequently leaves a bad taste, and one that has their fingers in just about every aspect of the music world *except* guitars, basses, and guitar/bass amps) in the not-too-distant future ...

Yep, HIGHLY interesting ...

robj · Post by **robj** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 9:45 am

minor correction, Roland has made guitar amps (JC120) and guitar/bass synths for years and does make bass amps as well, including a model with modeling features on board that is rumored to be pretty nice.

robj · Post by **robj** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 9:47 am

minor correction, Roland has made guitar amps (JC120) and guitar/bass synths for years and does make bass amps as well, including a digital model with amp modeling features on board which is rumored to be pretty nice.

ricnvolved · Post by **ricnvolved** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 10:15 am

As long as Rickenbacker and Larrivee stay out of the mindless acquisition turbulence, I'll be a happy man and won't worry about any of the rest of the musical instrument makers.

As for getting a Jazz style bass, I'm resigned to gathering the best quality parts out there and having a talented luthier/tech in my area build it for me. I simply don't trust the Fender name anymore.

corey · Post by **corey** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:27 am

Jeffery,

That's a very good point. A lot of us here know exactly what we want in an instrument, so local luthiers are a good "worst case scenario" option.

dougp · Post by **dougp** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 2:30 pm

Jeffery - you're totally right about the JC-120! The interesting thing about their guitar synthesizers is that when you buy a synth+guitar package, the guitar you get ... is a Fender Strat retrofitted with a Roland MIDI pickup.

And yeah, if you go with modular parts from makers like Warmouth, you can wind up with a better Strat, Tele, Jazz, etc. than you could buy from Fender.

jps · Post by **jps** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 6:19 am

I got a Fender AV '62 Jazz Bass a couple of months ago and it is built well with an excellent SB finish on it. This is the first new Fender I have ever bought, I did have some '71 and '72 Jazz and Tele basses years ago and this new one does seem to be of good quality. I agree though that their business style does leave a lot to be desired. Now if only RIC can get their BO situation under control the world would be a much better place, but not at the expense of quality, mind you.

longhouse · Post by **longhouse** » Sat Jun 07, 2003 6:59 am

Just a note:
I love my Roland JC-120 and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

It's part and parcel with capitalism to grow and, yes, monopolise. Fender may be gobbling up huge chunks of the market, but the true tone connoisseurs know what sounds good and will continue to buy the best tools for their needs. An MIM Fender (which needs to be rebuilt and set up [and possibly have the electronics upgraded]) is a great guitar for beginners or those on tight budgets; but once they get past those formative stages, if they have any sense at all, they will seek out and buy a real guitar: a Rickenbacker or some other high quality instrument, possibly vintage. It's like the car market, it's a lot like the auto market in fact. Rics are Ferraris, vintage DeSotos, and the like. Let the masses have their low-end Big 3 junk. They will either develop good sense and taste or they will go to their graves in ignorance.
Either way, the market for quality, distinctive, beautiful guitars (and cars!) will remain. I was saddened to learn that Fender bought Gretsch, but I'm afraid their quality might actually go UP. And now I might be able to get a Country Gent for less than 2K. A positive boon from the monopoly. The Roman Empire knew that if you couldn't vanquish your foes into oblivion, you had to integrate them -and, of course, it helped lead to their collapse (feel free to grin evilly at that).

trying to not lose the plot - cheers, Noel