David Crosby supposedly shared a house with Paul Kantner before either of them were in any famous bands.
The Jefferson Airplane were definitely influenced by the Byrds. Their first album "Takes Off" (1966) sounds very Byrds-influenced. Marty Balin's style is definitely influenced by Gene Clark. Paul Kantner's Rickenbacker grooves sometimes sound similar to Roger McGuinn's too. Listen to the song "Blues from an Airplane" and hear all that lovely Rick sound!
Grace Slick wasn't on the Airplane's first album, they had a different female singer then. But, before Grace Slick joined the Airplane in 1967, she was in another cool San Francisco band called The Great Society, with her husband Jerry Slick on drums, and his brother Darby on guitar. Darby wrote the classic song "Somebody to Love" and Grace wrote "White Rabbit" when she was in The Great Society too. I've been listening to The Great Society recently, and I really like it. Their sound is not as clean and polished as the Airplane's, but it's still pretty cool and is definitely important early psychedelic rock. Grace later became a big star with the Jefferson Airplane. Surrealistic Pillow (1967) is a CLASSIC album ! After Bathing at Baxters (1967) is funky too.
The Byrds were really the first "psychedelic" rock band, and they helped open up a lot of funky stuff on the West Coast scene.
The Airplane covered the Crosby song "Triad" on their 1968 album "Crown of Creation". Crosby plays guitar on that track too. Also, the Airplane cover Croby's "Wooden Ships" on their album "Volunteers" (1969). Crosby supposedly wrote "Wooden Ships" when sailing in his boat with Paul Kantner and Grace Slick. The Jefferson Airplane is also on a few tracks off Crosby's solo album from 1971 "If I Could Only Remember My Name...."
Byrds and Jefferson Airplane
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mark_telfer
- Veteran RRF member
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 3:48 am
Wow. My two favourite groups . . .
In fact, when I'm in the mood for some Rickenbacker listening, I tend to turn to Jefferson Airplane Takes Off more often than any Byrds album. Interestingly, as UK Record Collector magazine once put it, the early JA sounded like a more strident Seekers.
Paul Kantner soon ended up as the Rick 12-string champion in the band, but wasn't Jorma Kaukonen the first to buy and play one on JA recordings, before he turned to a Guild Thunderbird (Pillow) and a Gibson ES-345 (Baxter's)? The back cover of "Takes Off" shows Jorma with a Rick 12 and Paul with an acoustic 12, while some of that first album, or its out-takes, even sounds as if it has 2 Rick 12-strings together.
After "Takes Off", you have to turn to the live material to appreciate Paul Kantner's outstanding contribution to the Rickenbacker 12-string cause. The May 1967 Fillmore material in the "Loves You" boxed set, the slightly more polished June 1967 Monterey set and particularly the May 1968 Fillmore East set all feature Paul's 12-string recorded really loudly compared to the studio albums.
I hate to hear Paul labelled as a rhythm guitarist, because it's clear from these live performances that he had identified a whole new area for the so-called "rhythm guitar" in a rock group: playing in musical counterpoint to both the lead guitar and the bass.
Through mixing carefully-chosen power chords, bass runs and open tunings, Paul opened up the gap between Pete Townshend and Roger McGuinn and made it his own.
In fact, when I'm in the mood for some Rickenbacker listening, I tend to turn to Jefferson Airplane Takes Off more often than any Byrds album. Interestingly, as UK Record Collector magazine once put it, the early JA sounded like a more strident Seekers.
Paul Kantner soon ended up as the Rick 12-string champion in the band, but wasn't Jorma Kaukonen the first to buy and play one on JA recordings, before he turned to a Guild Thunderbird (Pillow) and a Gibson ES-345 (Baxter's)? The back cover of "Takes Off" shows Jorma with a Rick 12 and Paul with an acoustic 12, while some of that first album, or its out-takes, even sounds as if it has 2 Rick 12-strings together.
After "Takes Off", you have to turn to the live material to appreciate Paul Kantner's outstanding contribution to the Rickenbacker 12-string cause. The May 1967 Fillmore material in the "Loves You" boxed set, the slightly more polished June 1967 Monterey set and particularly the May 1968 Fillmore East set all feature Paul's 12-string recorded really loudly compared to the studio albums.
I hate to hear Paul labelled as a rhythm guitarist, because it's clear from these live performances that he had identified a whole new area for the so-called "rhythm guitar" in a rock group: playing in musical counterpoint to both the lead guitar and the bass.
Through mixing carefully-chosen power chords, bass runs and open tunings, Paul opened up the gap between Pete Townshend and Roger McGuinn and made it his own.
"But the man has a 47-string guitar." (Grace Slick on Paul Kantner's attempt to tune his 366/12 during a Winterland show of October 31 1969).
Crosby also sang on Paul Kantner's first solo album, 'Blows Against The Empire' (credited to "Jefferson Starship", but no relation to that later band's commercial dreck), and I believe may have been credited with co-authorship of one of the songs ("Have You Seen The Stars Tonight", maybe?). Seems like he got along far better with the members of Jefferson Airplane than with the actual band he had been in!
My basses are Rickenbackers. My synthesizers and recording gear are analog.
>> Seems like he got along far better with the
>> members of Jefferson Airplane than with the
>> actual band he had been in!
That's probably because Cros wasn't in the band. I bet old Crosby would've fought with 'em like crazy if he was in the Airplane though. He had the luxury of being an outside friend who could come in, get high, and leave whenever he wanted. He probably would've fought with them if he was in the band though. Much like how the Airplane fought with each other like cats and dogs later on and lead to their own downfall and that bad "glammy" 80s band called Starship with basically no original members.
Anway, the Airplane was cool as heck from 1966 to 1970. They even had some examples of "cool" stuff after that as well, though it became fewer and farther between. Their "Rick" sound was never as bold or as blatant as the Byrds use of the 12-string, but it was definitely in there and can be heard in all its Rick glory. Basically, I'd say the thing that made the Airplane's sound unique the most was their use of a female vocalist mixed in with the male voices. It really helped give the Airplane an edge over the other bands at the time. They had one of the first integrated "hippie" bands. The addition of Grace Slick really helped give them an edge. Grace's stuff with the Great Society was cool too. Darby Slick had some funky guitar parts on that Silvertone guitar too. Funky psychedelic surf sounds. When Grace left the Great Society and joined the Airplane, that's really when the Airplane's success "took off". Grace helped bring in two big songs "Somebody to Love" and "White Rabbit". Marty still wrote some good material, but he resented being second in line behind Grace and that eventually lead to interpersonal problems.
I still think that what the Airplane did is definitely important. Their first five albums are really COOL ! In fact, I think the Airplane and the Who should have their own discussion forums in these Rickenbacker pages. McCormack should seriously consider adding the Jefferson Airplane to his fine list of forums. I think the Zombies also used Ricks, and there are many other bands, but more so the Airplane. The Jefferson Airplane should definitely have their own Rickenbacker forum, what do you guys think?
Paul Kantner playing that fine Rick 12-string on the Woodstock film comes to mind, singing, "Saturday Afternoon" !!!
>> members of Jefferson Airplane than with the
>> actual band he had been in!
That's probably because Cros wasn't in the band. I bet old Crosby would've fought with 'em like crazy if he was in the Airplane though. He had the luxury of being an outside friend who could come in, get high, and leave whenever he wanted. He probably would've fought with them if he was in the band though. Much like how the Airplane fought with each other like cats and dogs later on and lead to their own downfall and that bad "glammy" 80s band called Starship with basically no original members.
Anway, the Airplane was cool as heck from 1966 to 1970. They even had some examples of "cool" stuff after that as well, though it became fewer and farther between. Their "Rick" sound was never as bold or as blatant as the Byrds use of the 12-string, but it was definitely in there and can be heard in all its Rick glory. Basically, I'd say the thing that made the Airplane's sound unique the most was their use of a female vocalist mixed in with the male voices. It really helped give the Airplane an edge over the other bands at the time. They had one of the first integrated "hippie" bands. The addition of Grace Slick really helped give them an edge. Grace's stuff with the Great Society was cool too. Darby Slick had some funky guitar parts on that Silvertone guitar too. Funky psychedelic surf sounds. When Grace left the Great Society and joined the Airplane, that's really when the Airplane's success "took off". Grace helped bring in two big songs "Somebody to Love" and "White Rabbit". Marty still wrote some good material, but he resented being second in line behind Grace and that eventually lead to interpersonal problems.
I still think that what the Airplane did is definitely important. Their first five albums are really COOL ! In fact, I think the Airplane and the Who should have their own discussion forums in these Rickenbacker pages. McCormack should seriously consider adding the Jefferson Airplane to his fine list of forums. I think the Zombies also used Ricks, and there are many other bands, but more so the Airplane. The Jefferson Airplane should definitely have their own Rickenbacker forum, what do you guys think?
Paul Kantner playing that fine Rick 12-string on the Woodstock film comes to mind, singing, "Saturday Afternoon" !!!
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mark_telfer
- Veteran RRF member
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 3:48 am
The key to the Airplane's harmonies was that the vocals were generally arranged in fifths, not unlike Paul's modal guitar chords on "Saturday Afternoon", which is also my favourite part of the Woodstock film.
I've just listened again to the "Loves You" boxed set version of "Let's Get Together", recorded live at the Fillmore in May '67. Compared to the "Takes Off" version, Jorma now plays the same final lead guitar break on a 6-string, with Paul on the 12.
I also like The Great Society, particularly Peter van der Gelder's (Gibson ?) bass playing.
I've just listened again to the "Loves You" boxed set version of "Let's Get Together", recorded live at the Fillmore in May '67. Compared to the "Takes Off" version, Jorma now plays the same final lead guitar break on a 6-string, with Paul on the 12.
I also like The Great Society, particularly Peter van der Gelder's (Gibson ?) bass playing.
"But the man has a 47-string guitar." (Grace Slick on Paul Kantner's attempt to tune his 366/12 during a Winterland show of October 31 1969).
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mark_telfer
- Veteran RRF member
- Posts: 89
- Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 3:48 am
Lee is right. I like The Searchers, I go to see them and I welcome their forum here, but when you consider that they recorded all of their signature 12-string hits on Burns Double Sixes, the Jefferson Airplane and Jefferson Starship definitely deserve to be put on a pedestal here after a consistent 37-year loyalty to Rickenbacker. Maybe something widened to include all San Francisco bands or all non-Byrd West Coast bands, for good measure ?
"But the man has a 47-string guitar." (Grace Slick on Paul Kantner's attempt to tune his 366/12 during a Winterland show of October 31 1969).
I like Mark's idea, especially since there *were* numerous 60's west coast bands that used Rics to one degree or another: Moby Grape, Chocolate Watchband, West Coast Pop Art Experimental Band, Flamin' Groovies (the only one I can think of that also had a Rickenbacker *bass*), etc. There must have been more than a few others (Beau Brummels? Love? New Tweedy Brothers? anyone?).
My basses are Rickenbackers. My synthesizers and recording gear are analog.
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lateaugust
As one being lost (and found) in the music of the sixties, it warms the heart that so much of what I loved is still being appreciated so many years on. You guys have great taste!
The first singer for the Airplane was Signe Anderson, who sounded a good deal like Slick, (or more appropriatley, Grace sounded like Signe!) but had a lot more blues and soul background mixed with her vocals, which I preferred.
When I first saw the Airplane they were doin' an outdoor gig at Grant High School near Van Nuys CA April '67.
(the openers were "Merry Go Round", "The Yellow Pages", "Peanut Butter Conspiracy", and some rough lookin' group called "The Doors")
Grace used a Farfisa organ on a couple numbers, Skip Spence had just been replaced on drums by Spencer Drieden, Cassidy was using a new Guild SF Bass II, Jorma used a cherry Gibson 345 w/Bigsby, and Paul was using a 360-12 in fire-glo. Poor Marty was relegated to playing a tambourine. It was quite a concert, the smell of incense (and heavier stuff) was heavy in the air. I started seriously learning guitar the next day and had a band of my own by late august that same year.
A few points of interest, the lead guitarist for Love used a Rick 360 6 string with Gibson humbuckers, never saw him with a Rick 12. But he definately showed the influence. The rhythm guitarist was the former roadie for the Byrds.
Yes Jorma did most of the lead work on "Takes Off" using a 360-12, with a side venture here and there on his 345 Gibson, and even one with a Gretsch Tennesean! ("Don't Slip Away")
The Youngbloods used a blonde 330-12 Rick and a Guild Aristocrat through a Polytone amp for "Get Together".
Ron Elliot of the Beau Brummels used an acoustic 12 for a few numbers but, here again, I never saw or heard evidence of a Rick 12. But he sure copped the Byrd feel on "Don't Talk to Strangers"!
I've always wondered why nobody gives Brian Jones of the Stones any credit for his use of a Rick 12. listen to his (Rose Morris 1997) 12 string work on "December's Children", then again (with an autum-glo 360-12) on "High Tides & Green Grass", interesting stuff, check it out.
Another early user was Richie Furray of the Buffalo Springfield, it was a stock 360-12 in fire-glo. (I've seen their baby pictures from the rehearsals at the Whiskey Au Go Go 1966)
One final note, Kantner used several 360-12s set in different tunings, standard, full step down, open G, and even one with the octave strings tuned to 5ths!
Rick 12s were rampant for a while there, but faded out, as did the 60s. I once bought a '65 blonde stereo for $150.00! Nice to know they're still loved!
The first singer for the Airplane was Signe Anderson, who sounded a good deal like Slick, (or more appropriatley, Grace sounded like Signe!) but had a lot more blues and soul background mixed with her vocals, which I preferred.
When I first saw the Airplane they were doin' an outdoor gig at Grant High School near Van Nuys CA April '67.
(the openers were "Merry Go Round", "The Yellow Pages", "Peanut Butter Conspiracy", and some rough lookin' group called "The Doors")
Grace used a Farfisa organ on a couple numbers, Skip Spence had just been replaced on drums by Spencer Drieden, Cassidy was using a new Guild SF Bass II, Jorma used a cherry Gibson 345 w/Bigsby, and Paul was using a 360-12 in fire-glo. Poor Marty was relegated to playing a tambourine. It was quite a concert, the smell of incense (and heavier stuff) was heavy in the air. I started seriously learning guitar the next day and had a band of my own by late august that same year.
A few points of interest, the lead guitarist for Love used a Rick 360 6 string with Gibson humbuckers, never saw him with a Rick 12. But he definately showed the influence. The rhythm guitarist was the former roadie for the Byrds.
Yes Jorma did most of the lead work on "Takes Off" using a 360-12, with a side venture here and there on his 345 Gibson, and even one with a Gretsch Tennesean! ("Don't Slip Away")
The Youngbloods used a blonde 330-12 Rick and a Guild Aristocrat through a Polytone amp for "Get Together".
Ron Elliot of the Beau Brummels used an acoustic 12 for a few numbers but, here again, I never saw or heard evidence of a Rick 12. But he sure copped the Byrd feel on "Don't Talk to Strangers"!
I've always wondered why nobody gives Brian Jones of the Stones any credit for his use of a Rick 12. listen to his (Rose Morris 1997) 12 string work on "December's Children", then again (with an autum-glo 360-12) on "High Tides & Green Grass", interesting stuff, check it out.
Another early user was Richie Furray of the Buffalo Springfield, it was a stock 360-12 in fire-glo. (I've seen their baby pictures from the rehearsals at the Whiskey Au Go Go 1966)
One final note, Kantner used several 360-12s set in different tunings, standard, full step down, open G, and even one with the octave strings tuned to 5ths!
Rick 12s were rampant for a while there, but faded out, as did the 60s. I once bought a '65 blonde stereo for $150.00! Nice to know they're still loved!
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lateaugust
I was fortunate enough to work in a band with the infamous "Jennifer Starkey" as lead singer. (She can be found in the Springfield 4 CD set booklet) She did the 1st LP liner notes, did publicity for, and had a load of photos of, the Springfield, covering the entire life of the group.
After Chris Hillman got the Springfield a gig at the Whiskey, they went right to work. The photos she took from the 1st rehearsal showed Furray using a Fire-Glo 360-12, Stills used a cherry Guild Starfire III and Neil had a sunburst DE500. These instruments were stolen shortly therafter and Furray opted for a black 335-12 Gibson as a replacment. A suitable choice, as it turned out.
After Chris Hillman got the Springfield a gig at the Whiskey, they went right to work. The photos she took from the 1st rehearsal showed Furray using a Fire-Glo 360-12, Stills used a cherry Guild Starfire III and Neil had a sunburst DE500. These instruments were stolen shortly therafter and Furray opted for a black 335-12 Gibson as a replacment. A suitable choice, as it turned out.
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anonymous
According to "There's Something Happening Here" by John Einarson and Richie Furay, Neil, Stephen and Richie only owned acoustics when they first started and when they began rehersals for the Whisky gig, Jim Dickson and Ed Tickner (Byrds) loaned them gear from the Dillards. Stills and Young ended up with hollow body Guilds and Furay with a tele. I was under the impression that the Whisky gig was played on borrowed gear. When the Springfield signed with Greene and Stone they fronted them the money for Neil's 6120, Still's blond Guild and Furay's Gibson 12. While I suppose it's possible that some instruments got stolen, this book was done with Furay's input and no mention is made of it (given Richie's later conversion, I would imagine that such an incident would have been highlighted) it doesn't seem like the early instruments were theirs. Since they did open for the Byrds, I'm sure that its possible that Furay played a RIC at some point. There were a number of bands around at the time who could have been the owner of the RIC - but I don't think it was Furay. It'd be cool to see pictures.
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anonymous
The color shots I saw were evidence that at some point during their first engagment, these instruments were being used. But, your quite right, the Rick at least, was in fact borrowed. Jennifer quoted Richie as rather passionately expressing a desire for "one just like it." Now that I think about it, the machines were open-back, so it wasn't completely original.
I do recall seeing black and white instamatic snap shots of Richie using both a Tele (with a capo on the 1st fret) and his Gibson B-45 12 (with a DeArmmond pickup) from early Whiskey performances, so the 360-12 must have been a short lived loaner. After associating Furray with the Gibson for so long, it was quite a surprise to see him with the Rick.
The Guild SF III and DE500 were stolen as Jennifer related. Still's reaction was described as being quite ****** about being "ripped off." Whether or not they were loaners seems uncertain, at the time Stills was given credit for supplying both instruments, but living with no visible means of support, one would have to conclude perhaps he merely arranged to borrow them. (or just took the credit for it!) Remember this is the guy that pulled the amp plugs on the Byrds performance to make the opening act (Springfield) look better.
It would be interesing to find out if the 6120 Neil used in the Mina Birds was the same one used in the Springfield.
I asked Brian Stone about their instruments in '72 when we started working at Goldstar, but his memory wasn't real clear on the subject.
"Doc" Segal, our engineer, did have some interesting tales of recording the Springfield.
For the record, "For What It's Worth" has stills playing "drums" as Dewey was too smashed to work the session. Unable to cop a proper bass kick, he substituted a card-board box and a timpani mallet! So next time you hear the song, listen for the card-board kick.
Another fable is "Burned", which is slightly inferior in quality to the rest of the cuts. This was a previous version substituted for the master tape, which was inadvertently cut up for confetti by Neil during a studio party celebrating the completion of the 1st LP.
Neil Young, the Jimmy Stewart of Rock and Roll!
I do recall seeing black and white instamatic snap shots of Richie using both a Tele (with a capo on the 1st fret) and his Gibson B-45 12 (with a DeArmmond pickup) from early Whiskey performances, so the 360-12 must have been a short lived loaner. After associating Furray with the Gibson for so long, it was quite a surprise to see him with the Rick.
The Guild SF III and DE500 were stolen as Jennifer related. Still's reaction was described as being quite ****** about being "ripped off." Whether or not they were loaners seems uncertain, at the time Stills was given credit for supplying both instruments, but living with no visible means of support, one would have to conclude perhaps he merely arranged to borrow them. (or just took the credit for it!) Remember this is the guy that pulled the amp plugs on the Byrds performance to make the opening act (Springfield) look better.
It would be interesing to find out if the 6120 Neil used in the Mina Birds was the same one used in the Springfield.
I asked Brian Stone about their instruments in '72 when we started working at Goldstar, but his memory wasn't real clear on the subject.
"Doc" Segal, our engineer, did have some interesting tales of recording the Springfield.
For the record, "For What It's Worth" has stills playing "drums" as Dewey was too smashed to work the session. Unable to cop a proper bass kick, he substituted a card-board box and a timpani mallet! So next time you hear the song, listen for the card-board kick.
Another fable is "Burned", which is slightly inferior in quality to the rest of the cuts. This was a previous version substituted for the master tape, which was inadvertently cut up for confetti by Neil during a studio party celebrating the completion of the 1st LP.
Neil Young, the Jimmy Stewart of Rock and Roll!
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pablo_mago
I read an interview with Jorma once stating that he was talked into using the Rickenbacker on "Takes Off" and that it set back his playing by "a couple of years."
Paul Kantner has been leading a new version of Jefferson Starship since the mid '90's with Marty Balin and sometimes Jack Casady. A beautiful young woman named Diana Mongano is the vocalist. I saw them a few years ago and they were amazingly good. Paul had about three or four 360-12's in rotation.
I'm going to see them in a couple of weeks in their "Acoustic Shuttlecraft" mode and I hope to get to ask Paul a few questions about Ricks.
Paul Kantner has been leading a new version of Jefferson Starship since the mid '90's with Marty Balin and sometimes Jack Casady. A beautiful young woman named Diana Mongano is the vocalist. I saw them a few years ago and they were amazingly good. Paul had about three or four 360-12's in rotation.
I'm going to see them in a couple of weeks in their "Acoustic Shuttlecraft" mode and I hope to get to ask Paul a few questions about Ricks.
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pablo_mago
I saw the four piece Jefferson Starship "Acoustic Shuttlecraft" last night. It was a good show. They played a lot of obscure tunes (Blows Against the Empire Suite, Wooden Ships, Lather, Alexander the Medium, Triad, High Flying Bird... I have the set list if anyone's interested). Paul had four Guild acoustic twelve strings in different tunings, not a Rickenbacker in sight. I was working as a stage hand so I got to talk briefly to Paul. I had him sign my Rickenbacker pickguard. When I told him it was from my Rick his eyes lit up and he asked me which one I had. He said it took him fifteen years to learn how to play one. But you can tell that he loves his Ricks. I wish I could have talked to him more, but he seemed preoccupied and I didn't want to intrude. The rest of the band, Mark "Slick" Agular on guitar, Chris White on keys and the beautiful Diana Mangano (be still my beating heart!) doing a great job filling Grace Slick's shoes, are all top notch players and are good folks one and all. If they play in your town, go see 'em!
I am a long time Jefferson Airplane fan, and I always thought what made them stand apart from the rest of the psychedelic crowd were their unbelievably great folkie 3, 4 and 5 part wild harmonies (Slick was the crowning touch) on top of the wild electric music, I especially loved "After Bathing At Baxters", and loved Cassidy's bass playing.