Miguel, that is the way I see it. Well said.
OK maybe if the guitar was from the 30's and had been left outside in winter for 70 years, but it has been looked after, as I said in my first post.
As for anyone that thinks we shouldn't buy a guitar if you don't like the warranty, well they have just kissed goodbye to buying anything second hand. Ridiculous. Gibsons, Fenders, Rickys lots of "cool" gear just gets better with age, and guitars are about so much more than efficiency and warranties. Of course that shouldn't mess with quality, so Rickenbacker can have the bust tailpiece back and shove it to their supplier if they like. Surely it'll help improve quality assurance in the future.
Broken "R" tailpiece
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
In a perfect world all materials would behave in the manner predicted. We would save a fortune on service plans, insurance policies and extended warranties. We would live forever and play more Rickenbackers than we currently have the good fortune to play during our relatively short existence on this planet.
A group of engineers working on a water-tower in our town designed the coolest looking tower and used highly skilled workers and the "best" steel that "exceeded the code." When they filled it up, and before the paint had dried, it burst and filled many rooms of a nearby hotel and created an element of danger and quite a flooding problem. I am not commenting on the engineers, just that materials that appear solid from the outside are not always solid on the inside.
When limited warranties run out, surely that is the end of the road. None of us like it, but we have learned to accept it. No company, let alone RIC, with a 70 year history of manufacturing quality products, wants an unnoticed limitation to strain customer relations. There are hundreds of thousands of "R" tailpieces out there that will have a shelf-life longer than any of us.
I don't mean to callously gloss over Gypsy Dave's concern. But it does seem to me that we all face the prospect of replacing a tailpiece, a tuner, a pickguard or potentiometer perhaps at some point after the warranty has expired. This makes RIC no less a great company and our instrument no less a great Rickenbacker. It is rather, something that we all face throughout the lifespan, "unpredictable wear and tear."
Life is short why not replace the part and jangle on. My two cents.
A group of engineers working on a water-tower in our town designed the coolest looking tower and used highly skilled workers and the "best" steel that "exceeded the code." When they filled it up, and before the paint had dried, it burst and filled many rooms of a nearby hotel and created an element of danger and quite a flooding problem. I am not commenting on the engineers, just that materials that appear solid from the outside are not always solid on the inside.
When limited warranties run out, surely that is the end of the road. None of us like it, but we have learned to accept it. No company, let alone RIC, with a 70 year history of manufacturing quality products, wants an unnoticed limitation to strain customer relations. There are hundreds of thousands of "R" tailpieces out there that will have a shelf-life longer than any of us.
I don't mean to callously gloss over Gypsy Dave's concern. But it does seem to me that we all face the prospect of replacing a tailpiece, a tuner, a pickguard or potentiometer perhaps at some point after the warranty has expired. This makes RIC no less a great company and our instrument no less a great Rickenbacker. It is rather, something that we all face throughout the lifespan, "unpredictable wear and tear."
Life is short why not replace the part and jangle on. My two cents.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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gypsy_dave
Just to update, RIC have not yet offered any help other than selling me a new one but that even is currently out of stock... Of course the fact I live so far away is down to me, so shipping no problem... but really why aren't these things cast better, I am kissing goodbye to session work with this guitar out of order.
Okay RIC it isn't your fault.. so on my behalf can you shove a rocket up your supplier, and maybe sort out improving either the casting or the materials.
The reason I aired my comments in public was to ask people who know more about this sort of stuff than me, where can I get one from? What are my options? I actually was unaware RIC's people read the board regularly, hence the capitals to get their attention if they browsed.... and the comment "do the decent thing" is actually a back handed compliment. My way of saying I don't "expect" them to fix it, but consider that if they did it would be very decent of them.
Peter your comment about the "good news is that it did not let go while you were performing or restringing it, sending shattered parts across the room. " was interesting, I mean I do agree no-one was hurt so yes that's good news, but had that happened and it hurt someone, the club I may have been playing in would sue me, so of course I would sue RIC, and I would stand every chance of winnning, even here in Australia. The tailpiece is under tension of course but "wear" I don't think so. As mentioned this guitar has had an easy life it is immaculate in every other way.
Just like to add "Thank You" to all of you who have responded with this problem it is actually an interesting dilemma, and I harbour no annoyance at individuals opinions at all.
Mind you PLEASE Rickenbacker, send me a new one will ya? I can't let this guitar sit idle... if you want you can have the broken piece back. I was thinking it might make a great belt buckle...
but then again do I want to advertise such weak casting... lol...
Cheers guys.
Dave.
P.S. I am fully in camp for the "R" looking so much better than a trapeze, and basically it's an icon for me. But the trapeze is more practical... but then of course had that been my bag I'd have got a Japanese 12... lol.
Okay RIC it isn't your fault.. so on my behalf can you shove a rocket up your supplier, and maybe sort out improving either the casting or the materials.
The reason I aired my comments in public was to ask people who know more about this sort of stuff than me, where can I get one from? What are my options? I actually was unaware RIC's people read the board regularly, hence the capitals to get their attention if they browsed.... and the comment "do the decent thing" is actually a back handed compliment. My way of saying I don't "expect" them to fix it, but consider that if they did it would be very decent of them.
Peter your comment about the "good news is that it did not let go while you were performing or restringing it, sending shattered parts across the room. " was interesting, I mean I do agree no-one was hurt so yes that's good news, but had that happened and it hurt someone, the club I may have been playing in would sue me, so of course I would sue RIC, and I would stand every chance of winnning, even here in Australia. The tailpiece is under tension of course but "wear" I don't think so. As mentioned this guitar has had an easy life it is immaculate in every other way.
Just like to add "Thank You" to all of you who have responded with this problem it is actually an interesting dilemma, and I harbour no annoyance at individuals opinions at all.
Mind you PLEASE Rickenbacker, send me a new one will ya? I can't let this guitar sit idle... if you want you can have the broken piece back. I was thinking it might make a great belt buckle...
but then again do I want to advertise such weak casting... lol... Cheers guys.
Dave.
P.S. I am fully in camp for the "R" looking so much better than a trapeze, and basically it's an icon for me. But the trapeze is more practical... but then of course had that been my bag I'd have got a Japanese 12... lol.
[You'd be perfectly happy with the engine block busting, and the axle snapping, and the drive shaft shattering on your vehicle at 36,001 miles?
Of course not! I just had a clutch cylinder failure with 4 months left on my warranty, and I would have been unhappy if it had waited 4 months longer to happen. At the same time, I know that parts and components do fail and wear out and I don't expect Mitsubishi to warrant them forever, just a reasonable amount of time. And yes, if I felt that amount of time was inadequate, I wouldn't have bought the car.
FWIW, I believe the tailpiece is a cast alloy, not steel. And I've seen a handful of reports of brekage, but I haven't seen any evidence it's a widespread problem.
[As for anyone that thinks we shouldn't buy a guitar if you don't like the warranty, well they have just kissed goodbye to buying anything second hand. Ridiculous.
For the record, three of my current four basses were bought used. Obviously I'm not telling anyone not to buy used. But you misunderstand my statement. I meant, if you don't feel the warranty on a new product is adequate to protect your investment, then don't buy it, buy another brand whose warranty suits your purposes. If you do buy it anyway, then don't gripe when something goes wrong after the warranty expires.
There's nothing wrong with you pointing out the tailpiece's failure here. After all, it did fail. But publicly campaigning for RIC to replace it out of warranty is not the proper thing to do, IMO.
Of course not! I just had a clutch cylinder failure with 4 months left on my warranty, and I would have been unhappy if it had waited 4 months longer to happen. At the same time, I know that parts and components do fail and wear out and I don't expect Mitsubishi to warrant them forever, just a reasonable amount of time. And yes, if I felt that amount of time was inadequate, I wouldn't have bought the car.
FWIW, I believe the tailpiece is a cast alloy, not steel. And I've seen a handful of reports of brekage, but I haven't seen any evidence it's a widespread problem.
[As for anyone that thinks we shouldn't buy a guitar if you don't like the warranty, well they have just kissed goodbye to buying anything second hand. Ridiculous.
For the record, three of my current four basses were bought used. Obviously I'm not telling anyone not to buy used. But you misunderstand my statement. I meant, if you don't feel the warranty on a new product is adequate to protect your investment, then don't buy it, buy another brand whose warranty suits your purposes. If you do buy it anyway, then don't gripe when something goes wrong after the warranty expires.
There's nothing wrong with you pointing out the tailpiece's failure here. After all, it did fail. But publicly campaigning for RIC to replace it out of warranty is not the proper thing to do, IMO.
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wileyibex
I'll agree with several other posters here: I like the looks of the "R" tailpiece. I do wish that the bottoms of the string guide slots were enclosed to make re-stringing simpler, though.
I infer that the "misinformation" to which John Hall refers must be in regard to his perception of the recurring discussions that flow from owners of Ric's with "R" tailpieces reporting failures of that part. What I don't understand, though, is specifically which "adaptations" the owner should be "willing" to make to better serve the tailpiece of his/her guitar(s). John Hall appears to imply that we, the Ric guitar owners, are the source of the tailpiece problem. I simply don't know what I could do to hasten or prevent the demise of an "R" tailpiece. I am left to wonder just what it is that we're doing wrong...I've owned a great number of guitars in my life and have never knowingly taken any action specifically to preserve or protect an instrument's tailpiece, yet I've never suffered a breakage.
Nevertheless, if the failure rate of the "R" tailpiece is unacceptably high, wouldn't that more likely point to a problem with materials or casting of the "R" tailpiece rather than an owner failure, as there is apparently little or no breakage problem with the trapeze tailpiece, and the owners of both types must come from roughly the same general population? (Or are we "R-type" owners being singled out as a bunch of ham-fisted, tailpiece-abusing galoots?)
Is this a matter that could be resolved with the company that casts the tailpieces?
I infer that the "misinformation" to which John Hall refers must be in regard to his perception of the recurring discussions that flow from owners of Ric's with "R" tailpieces reporting failures of that part. What I don't understand, though, is specifically which "adaptations" the owner should be "willing" to make to better serve the tailpiece of his/her guitar(s). John Hall appears to imply that we, the Ric guitar owners, are the source of the tailpiece problem. I simply don't know what I could do to hasten or prevent the demise of an "R" tailpiece. I am left to wonder just what it is that we're doing wrong...I've owned a great number of guitars in my life and have never knowingly taken any action specifically to preserve or protect an instrument's tailpiece, yet I've never suffered a breakage.
Nevertheless, if the failure rate of the "R" tailpiece is unacceptably high, wouldn't that more likely point to a problem with materials or casting of the "R" tailpiece rather than an owner failure, as there is apparently little or no breakage problem with the trapeze tailpiece, and the owners of both types must come from roughly the same general population? (Or are we "R-type" owners being singled out as a bunch of ham-fisted, tailpiece-abusing galoots?)
Is this a matter that could be resolved with the company that casts the tailpieces?
1. The parts are precision die cast from a zinc alloy that has never changed over the years. They're expensive and made by an entirely different process than the "pot metal" as they've been referred to.
2. The failure rate is infintessimal. There's tens of thousands of these out there in perfect condition. Some do break but it's a very small number overall. Keys, pickguards, and pickups fail a thousand times more often.
3. When plated, especially with today's tri-valent chrome, the surface of these parts is very brittle. One scratch can be the recipe for a spreading fracture line, just like glass. Don't scratch and bump them and there's no problem. It's actually fairly hard to scratch chrome, by the way but other tailpiece designs tend not to located where they can be hit so easily.
4. An owner must adapt to the different way of changing strings; some people find a piece of masking tape helpful to keep the strings in place. Perhaps the slot as opposed to threading through a hole challenges some people but I would assume someone who can play a guitar has suitable manual dexterity to handle the job.
I have a number of options with regard to this component and it will be dealt with one way or another. Given that chrome plating will likely disappear in the US, just as it will next year in Japan, something needs to be done anyway.
2. The failure rate is infintessimal. There's tens of thousands of these out there in perfect condition. Some do break but it's a very small number overall. Keys, pickguards, and pickups fail a thousand times more often.
3. When plated, especially with today's tri-valent chrome, the surface of these parts is very brittle. One scratch can be the recipe for a spreading fracture line, just like glass. Don't scratch and bump them and there's no problem. It's actually fairly hard to scratch chrome, by the way but other tailpiece designs tend not to located where they can be hit so easily.
4. An owner must adapt to the different way of changing strings; some people find a piece of masking tape helpful to keep the strings in place. Perhaps the slot as opposed to threading through a hole challenges some people but I would assume someone who can play a guitar has suitable manual dexterity to handle the job.
I have a number of options with regard to this component and it will be dealt with one way or another. Given that chrome plating will likely disappear in the US, just as it will next year in Japan, something needs to be done anyway.
John: Many thanks for providing the details with regard to the manufacturing of the "R" tailpiece. Excellent points too about other components failing more often. It will be interesting to see how RIC replaces this process when chrome plating "bits the dust."
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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shamustwin
- Senior Member
- Posts: 5287
- Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 5:00 am
IMHO, the R tailpiece is a classy statement. Mine's holding up on my 4005, though it's not as shiny as it once was. And the one thing I dislike about the guitar (660) I most likely will buy is that it doesn't have one. The trapeze may be more precise, reliable, whatever, but the R reminds me of the glory days of craftmanship. A new Mercedes 500SL may be a miracle of engineering, but I'd much prefer a '71 280 SL, warts and all. It just LOOKS like it took more skill and craftsmanship to build. And so it is, I feel, with the R tailpiece. It looks classy, and is instantly identifiable, like the Mercedes Star. Retire the R tailpiece? I cannot bear to think about it!
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corey
Corey: I have no idea what John Hall has in mind. I suspect, however, that it would be possible to keep the "R" tailpiece but have it manufactured in a different manner.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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I had an R tailpiece fail on a '67 330/12. At the time I played around with a number of other R tailpieces seeking a replacement. One of them was a 12 string R tailpiece that happened to be on a 66 360/6. It was the original TP even though the guitar was a six string. This particular tailpiece was noteworthy because it was much heavier than the broken one (and new ones currently available from RIC). This led me to wonder if at one time RIC may have switched materials or suppliers for this tailpiece. Would the heavier material been stronger? Has anyone else noticed this variance in materials?
"Les is more"
Oh, and as for restringing the wild R tailpiece: I found it could easily be tamed by shoving a guitar polishing cloth between the TP and body after inserting the string in the slot. This holds it in very nicely and allows full attention to be directed to wrestling with the tuners on the headstock.
"Les is more"
I have no idea what the cost to tool up for a change would be to Rickenbacker, but a hypothetical idea is; retain the exact silhouette
shape of the R , but get a metal stamping die, and make it from stainless steel, then get the stainless polished to a mirror finish. No breaking, no plating required.Then there is the issue of a proper end hook piece, but perhaps the whole thing could be stamped out as one piece, the end section actually part of the back end of the R, then put the flat piece in a bending brake, not unlike the big bent piece on the Accent vibrato. Just a thought.....
shape of the R , but get a metal stamping die, and make it from stainless steel, then get the stainless polished to a mirror finish. No breaking, no plating required.Then there is the issue of a proper end hook piece, but perhaps the whole thing could be stamped out as one piece, the end section actually part of the back end of the R, then put the flat piece in a bending brake, not unlike the big bent piece on the Accent vibrato. Just a thought.....