FENDER AND THE BARNUM PHILOSOPHY

dale_fortune · Post by **dale_fortune** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:28 pm

I knew Leo personally, the only reason he sold his beloved company was because of his health issues. Leo was a capitalist, he gave the musicians what they wanted and needed and made alot of money doing it. I believe if he were here today he would be proud of the path that the custom shop in Corona Calif. has taken. Reverting back to the small peg head and contoured bodies that are really contoured. 3 color sunburst finish that isn't covered will boat resin. The demand for Relic Instruments is high on the list not only at Fender but also Gibson. I see this in the same manner as someone who wants a Harley Davidson. Filling that lifelong fantasy with a new/vintage guitar.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 7:39 pm

I did not know Leo personally, so I defer to you, Dale.

But I wonder what he'd have to say about fake Relics. To me, they seem to go against his integrity as an engineer/inventor/seat of the pants designer...

But I can only suppose. This thread really reflects my own beliefs and prejudices, too. I can't put words into Leo's mouth, nor can I predict how he would have reacted.

dale_fortune · Post by **dale_fortune** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:19 am

I don't think he'd approve of the outsource models, but that's the law of supply and demand. As for the relics and closet models, I personally think he'd be proud, but who am I to say since G.F. and L.F. are no longer with us. Leo was a hubble man, quiet spoken but a person of conviction. When CBS bought Fender, he signed a long term contract agreeing not to build guitars for many years. But his money backed Music Man with Forest White and Brian Carman at the helm. Then G&L came after the contract ran out and George and Leo(life long friends) were back at what they loved and did best.

geddeeee · Post by **geddeeee** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:06 am

To relic a guitar is tantamount to fraud IMO! I think there is a market out there for the sad muso's, usually the ones who want to make it big, who think it is 'cool' to have a distressed looking guitar. I think mainly to boast to people that it's a 'limited edition 50 year old Strat'.
WHATEVER!!!!!
I've met a few of these people, and after wiping the hair gel off my hands, I've pointed to my Rick with a smug grin on my face, secretly knowing that I'm 'the cool one'. I look for 'tone' and true style in a guitar, that's why RIC got my £1200.
Fender have lost their way, I think. They used to make great instruments, but nowadays, their guitars are ten-a-penny. I got rid of my Fender Jazz, which was distressed through years of 'real' gigging and recording, and it's the best move I've ever made.
I understand that they are running a business, but please....

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:40 am

I could post paragraphs and paragraphs of carefully-reasoned arguments, and will continue to do so. This apparently comes from a lifelong wish to put my own reactions and enotions into words.

Then Mark and Forumites like him, just write three paragraphs (or less) off the cuff and sometimes say it so much better!!!

Hats off to you, Geddeeee!

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:52 am

I've owned a Fender or two in my time, I have a Jazz Bass in my stable right now. Luv it as a matter-of-fact. BUT-

The reason that I will NEVER buy another USA made Fender is this: When I inquired about having a bass (about $1800 street price) made in a left-handed version, they wanted a $1500 upcharge....which is bulls**t. This is not reasonable and customary by any means. My response was "...I don't want two of them...never mind."

tomg · Post by **tomg** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:56 am

0/10 for harshness Geddeee.

It's not 'tantamount' to anything. It's just a product like any other product. Secondly you make and awfully broad assumption and equally broad indictment of people who choose to buy and play these instruments.

What's really interesting to me is that I've never, ever heard someone on a Fender board tear down Rickenbacker players over their choice of guitars. It saddens me to read this sort of commentary on this board.

In the end all that matters is the music people make.

freshmattyp · Post by **freshmattyp** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:05 am

+1 Tomg. The level of snobbery on this board is amazing sometimes. I own 4 Fender guits, one of which is a Cunetto-era relic and I don't have enough hair to hold any product. Where does that leave me?

Can we just celebrate Ric's without tearing everyone else down?

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:07 am

Well said, Tom. I'd say, some like cakes and some like cheese... that doesn't mean any of these are tastier than the other. Fender has a great reputation here, in Russia (when i said to a friend that i'm gonna have a real Rick, he replied: "Why not Fender or Gibson?!"), and is considered to be a cool thing. Ricks, on the other hand, are not so well known, but it doesn't make them worse, right?
To each their own. I don't like artificially aged products, but there are people who do like them, and it's their choice that i should respect.

tomg · Post by **tomg** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 7:22 am

And for the record, I feel 'cool' whether I'm playing one of my Rick basses, my Dano or my P-Bass.

Matt, there's a level of that on every board. Many people here are die-hard Rick fans, and personally I couldn't blame anyone for being, um, 'hardcore'

over their choices.

geddeeee · Post by **geddeeee** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:05 am

It's not meant as a damning indictment of all Fender players, it's just a personal opinion. In the end it IS the music that matters. I just feel that Fender are exploiting some of their customers with such overblown prices for something that is in essence a 'scuffed' brand new guitar.
As I have said many, many times, each to their own....

freshmattyp · Post by **freshmattyp** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:13 am

Yes, there is a level of that everywhere. I'm a member at several other sites devoted to a single manufacturer or even a single model. This place out-snobs them all. I understand that pretty much everyone here is a diehard. I'm a diehard myself, but not to the exclusion of every other guitar.

I feel cool just playing guitar, it doesn't matter what brand is hanging off my shoulder.

geddeeee · Post by **geddeeee** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:24 am

I seem to have offended a few people. That was not my intention at all. We are talking about relic-ed or distressed finish, not the actual guitars themselves. Anyone who has owned a Fender will know that quality has suffered over the last 20 years.
Jimi Hendrix, Jeff Beck, JP Jones, JJ Burnel all played Fenders. I wouldn't dare say these people are fools. Their music rocks!!
I've owned Fenders, Jazz and Precision (I prefer the Precision).
I'm not in the business of denegrating Fender, Gibson or any make of guitar, or their players, this thread was about the overblown prices charged for relic guitars.
Yeah I am Rick snob, but this IS a Rick forum.

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:44 am

this IS a Rick forum.

Agreed. This place is suggested for discussing - and praising - Ricks, that is true. But there are two ways of praising: either you just highlight the high quality, playability, design, etc, as such, or you compare the brand of choice to another brand, which is worse in your opinion, highlighting the former's advantages and the latter's disadvantages. Which can be considered as an improper way of advertising the product.
I agree about quazi-relics, but i own a Fender Telecoustic and am absolutely satisfied with its features, and it stays in tune very well! I remember Dane Terry brought up an interesting association with "aged" clothes, but cannot quote since i don't remember the text exactly and where his message was posted.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:35 am

I'm not too surprised that some folks seem to be missing my points over and over--in fact, don't even address them. There are lots of assumptions and side-issues being made and raised and then discussed. I'm talking about the nonsense of selling junk at inflated prices, and hoping for some views on this issue of fine craft versus mass-produced dreck (relics, NOT Fenders or any other maker's products!).

Instead I'm hearing that there are scathing indictments of Fender players.

The only reason I mention Fender is that they are going at this gold mine tooth and claw. I'M a Fender player. My first guitar was a Fender, back in '64 or '65. I currently own SEVEN Fenders. I have owned "former celebrity" Fenders from the '50s. They did not improve my playing, despite their relic status. I DID have bragging rights, and that's it.

No one has answered my question re: why else other than to purchase bragging rights would anyone buy a faked Jeff Beck monstrosity?

My statements were meant to open a discussion on craft (my own passion, but I am a player, too...) and the collision it has with marketing and profiteering in the case of so-called "relics".

Nothing more, nothing less, and I guess I could say that I am not surprised that some will make other assumptions, extend the dialogue, and get all heated up.

I am most definitely my own kind of snob, when it comes to building and playing lovely guitars, among other things. It comes with the awareness of design and craft that thirty-six years in product design and ten in education of product designers, brings. So if that's meant as a defamatory label, it only reflects a certain anti-intellectual prejudice that is becoming more and more common in our country every day. And I see the label "snob" being applied here in several different ways, to nobody's benefit. Labels create confusion and are anti-rational; guaranteed to characterize people without knowing them.

Is "fool" a label? Nope, it's an opinion. I believe that it is foolish to waste money to buy **** because some corporation tells me that it's "cool" (in many, many more words, of course--that's Marketspeak...). That is my belief. I also believe that money spent on beautiful craft is well spent (I don't think I need to elaborate on this, but I could be wrong). And we need more of it in this country today.

Relicked junk is NOT "beautiful craft". No No. I even have doubts about Fender's Custom Shop, which at best takes experienced luthiers and has them building bolt-together guitars from hand-selected machine-made parts, for sale at silly prices. But that's another discussion; the Custom Shop Gretsches I've seen are certainly lovely and built by very talented men. Multiply that by 50 and you have the Terada facility in Japan. I have nothing but respect for the people--faceless and nameless--who hand-build guitars there, too.

And my sensibilities and sympathies lie, in the end, with Rickenbacker because I agree with their way of doing things, which is a very workmanlike approach to high craft, done on a daily basis, in the USA ( in So Cal, which is a very unfriendly environment) to an audience who are highly appreciative of this effort and the tradition and history which it represents and perpetuates.

Again, my own opinions based upon my experiences and some very deeply-felt and strongly-held beliefs. You can call me prejudiced (and some will), but that's missing the point of discussion and enlightenment.

But I'm always willing to debate, discuss, and--yes--to be enlightened and also to defer to anyone with better experience in whatever area, as I did gladly to Dale, a SoCal old-timer (sorry, Dale, but you are 6 months older than me!) who has forgotten more about some stuff than I'll ever know.

I've heard the label "Rick snob" used more times than I can count; mostly by people who don't fully understand the differences between RIC and virtually any other guitar company out there.

BTW, I'm itching to try a Collings. Similar philosophy, similar product integrity.

I noticed years ago--whe I drove my first new Studebaker Avanti--that great (some may say "classic") products are almost invariably the result of the vision and midwifery of one visionary. Two thirds down the scale of greatness, you have "committee-driven" products, which always suffer from dumbing-down and blandmaking.

At the bottom of the heap you have products which have no real reason to exist except to give marketing people a reason to justify their jobs, and to part people from their money.

Rickenbacker is at the top, with Avanti, Porsche, Rolls-Royce, Jaeger-LeCoultre, and hundreds of other timeless products which straddle the line between Art and Craft. And when a Rickenbacker guitar costs a fraction of anybody's "Relic", it becomes affordable beauty and utility of the highest sort.