Keys are for doors!

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:20 pm

Jason: I may be not too familiar with Western contemporary system, but i just got too much used to mols and durs, and H for Si / B for Si mol (flat). Hope it wouldn't be too bad of me to keep on using those "terms"? I just cannot promise i'll be able to "rebuild" my way of thinking in a short time...
(~~I know how old Brian is, BTW. I won't say it now, but believe me, he's not old enough to have faced what was going on in 18th Century, i must say~~. Oops. I didn't say that.)
So, back to the topic (kinda): what other key switch tricks do you know about, guys? I've recalled a song which had a switch from Re minor to La minor, and another which went from Fa minor to Re minor and back to Fa minor through Fa major. Any others?..

jdogric12 · Post by **jdogric12** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:09 am

Sheena,
I think it's okay for you to continue to use the nomenclature you are familiar with. For the benefit of others, though, let's post a quick guide to conversion here:
C = Do
D = Re
E = Mi
F = Fa
G = So (or Sol)
A = La
American B = Russian Si (or H)
American B flat = Russian Si mol (or B)
mol = flat
dur = sharp (?)
Whew! I think I got it. It is a little tricky. Okay, it is a lot tricky.

And Brian, I have no idea what your age is, so I'm a little confused. What I like about this forum is the "age anonymity," unless you look at profiles, which I do from time to time.

Look for a related thread all about solfedge. I'll title it "Fixed or Movable Do?"

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:57 am

What also confuses me about the chords, BTW: what's the difference between "regular" A and Amaj? I mean, how do maj chords are constructed?
~~(to clear up the confusion, Jason: Brian is 29 1/2 years older than me, and i'm gonna hit twenty eight in 9 days.~~ But remember, i didn't say that!

)
And BTW, i never looked at Do, Re, Mi, etc system as Russian, i thought it's universal ("classic"?). There's another "chord system" as well, where notes are indicated by numbers - 1 for C/Do etc. Here, the chords look like 6m (m for minor), 25c (c for major), etc. That one is really tricky, at least for me!

jdogric12 · Post by **jdogric12** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:07 am

You're right, Sheena, it is universal, not just Russian. But I don't think anyone else will be using the letter H, so I wanted to clarify that.

The "regular" chord is major.
A =
Amaj =
A C# E =
La Do# Mi

What is 25? This is getting really interesting!

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:23 am

Um, 25c was just for example, i'm not sure which one it really is, looks like it's G7 with an additional d note (sorry for misleading - b goes for major and c for sept chords, just checked the book), though not sure (as i said, this system is somehow beyond my understanding). In that system, 1 is for C, 2 for D, 3 for E, 4 for F etc. So, a "plain" chord looks like 2m or 2c. If we add a note, for example g on 6th string for C chord (1b in that notation), then we'll get 51b. Plain and simple, ha-ha.

Sorry, i've spent a few months trying to understand that system, and i'm rather laughing at myself.

telebob · Post by **telebob** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 6:48 am

I always try to accomodate the vocalist. The singer needs to be comfortable if they are to deliver a song with any real conviction. If that means changing the key, I'll do it on the spot in most cases. Many guitar oriented songs will take a key change well. Some simply will not.

It's important to understand what the key of a song actually is if you're going to comp around or solo on it. One of the most common mistakes I hear is people playing a solo in Sweet Home Alabama in the key of D. The song, although it starts on D, is actually in the key of G and soloing out of a G major pentatonic scale sounds infinitely better than the solos I've heard played in D. It really does pay to know what key you're actually playing in.

wayang · Post by **wayang** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:35 am

I had a key, but I had to split it with the sound man...

wayang · Post by **wayang** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:02 pm

You know, Bob...I once accommodated a vocalist so much I wound up married to her for five years...

Among other things, I got tired of always having to change my keys...

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:16 pm

I think it behooves anyone who plays to learn how to play in any key. I also accommodate the vocalist and actually will ask them to start the song a cappella if they do not know the correct key for the song. I pick up the key by ear then tell everyone else if they haven't gotten it and then start the song. I am house bass player for a blues jam and have done this for many years.

telebob · Post by **telebob** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:01 pm

Right on Bob. There's nothing worse than listening to a singer struggle with a song in the wrong key for them.

I had an audition a couple years ago and was informed that the girl singing liked everything to be in Ab. "Everything?" I asked in horror.

needless to say, I never went on the audition. Some people can take this to extremes.

jdogric12 · Post by **jdogric12** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:21 pm

Good points, Telebob. My personal preference is to call the key by its tonic. In the case of S.H.Alabama this is D, but we have C chords instead of D's usual A chord. So now we would be getting into 'modes.' In this particular case, we have D, borrowing the key signature from G (one sharp only) so it is D Mixolydian. Our ears are still directed toward D as the root note, but the key signature comes from another key.

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:31 pm

Simplified: D Mixolydian = D Major with a lowered 7th, hence the C rather than the C#.

I've met so many people who really fear/dread learning modes. Irrational, if you ask me!

leesh · Post by **leesh** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 9:00 pm

I was just introduced into the world of modes this past week.

jdogric12 · Post by **jdogric12** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:31 am

Super Simplified:
Here are some modes that all have the same key: No sharps and no flats:
C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian
Here's another way to think of it:
Ionian: Major
Dorian: minor with a sharp 6th
Phrygian: minor with a flat 2nd
Lydian: Major with a sharp 4th
Mixolydian: Major with a flat 7th
Aeolian: minor
Locrian: minor with a flat 2nd and flat 5th (very weird)

Alisha, tell us more. How were you introduced to modes this week? Like at a party?

telebob · Post by **telebob** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:02 am

When I look at a tune like Sweet Home Alabama I see 3 major chords. When I organize this numerically it suggests G to me for two reasons.

As I see it:
1 = major
2 = minor
3 = minor
4 = major
5 = dominant
6 = minor
7 = m7b5

In G you would then have the following chord scale: G Am Bm C D7 Em F#m7b5

In the context of a D major scale the G chord appears as a 4/major but the note C is absent. When the D ionian is played over the progression, the notes B and C# imply either a M7 or a #9 as played against the C chord. It doesn't work too well.

When I look at it from the perspective of G as my "1" chord, then C follows suit as my "4" and D follows as my "5". In this instance the G major scale, or better yet, G pentatonic major scale fits very well.

The other reason I like G is because the song it's self spends an extra measure on G every time around. Playing the solo in the G context over the two bars of G makes for a great "tension/release" spot for phrasing.

I am not very well versed in theory, but this approach has served me well when I need to understand what key I'm playing in.

In another example, I would also say that "All Along the Watchtower" is also in G. (If you're playing it as Em D C that is) Soloing over it from the perspective of G insures that the note C and not C# makes it into the scale. Of course E is the root tone and the astute observer will soon see that it this really is an E aeolian scale, but hey, ya gotta get there somehow. I find this method to be easiest. Once you hear the difference, you suddenly begin to notice just how many people use the wrong scale over this type of progression. The C# or natural 6 really grates against that C chord.