Would anybody be looking for a "Wings" bass amp...

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:45 am

There are a lot of great bass players who made a carreer out of playing the acoustic 360/370 series bass amps ... Jaco, John Paul Jones ... etc ... it was one of the better amps of its day ... is the SVT better yes and no ... I played through a SVT last night ... in my opinion it is too boomy ... my 370 cab had a more controlled low end ... I prefer a smaller amp miked into a PA that is set up right ..

The main reason I don't use a SVT or an acoustic 370 cab is they are too damn big ... both of those sound good in their own way ... I prefer something smaller and lighter than a refrigerator ... I still move my own equipment ...

philco · Post by **philco** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:35 pm

Jeffrey, thanks for the link. I really dig that Phil Jones Bassmans Briefcase.

I once had a pair of JMLab Daline 3.1 speakers with a single 5" woofer in each tower. The 5" Focal woofer had dual voice coils. At lower frequencies the second voice coil kicked in and allowed fairly flat response to 30 Hz! It just couldn't play loudly. I always thought of getting a bunch of them to make a tall tower type bass cabinet. I agree mostly with Phil Jones, except I still believe in the tower concept if using a 1-way, wide bandwidth, multi-driver setup. My dream cab would be 7-10" wide with the speakers on the narrow cab side, and over 6' tall for a full stack. It's known as a Line Source configuration, and gives maximum spreading of high frequencies.

Very compact cabinets are feasible. Stewart Audio has given us suitable amps with the World Series amplifiers. It's time for cab companies to follow their lead.

In my apartment, a single B102 does very well and rattles the walls just fine. I now laugh at myself when I think that I once wanted one of those Acoustic 370 amps and the matching folded horn cab.

jeff_ulmer · Post by **jeff_ulmer** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:37 pm

"I prefer something smaller and lighter than a refrigerator "

But where is the roadie supposed to sleep?

jps · Post by **jps** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 3:27 pm

Yeah Philip,
Line sources have gotten a bad rap over the years, probably from cheap PA columns( Shure Vocalmaster, anyone?). Even the Grateful Dead were hip to line sources, hence "The Wall Of Sound" they used in the '70s. At one time I considered the JBL Cabaret series 4-10 column as a viable option along with the companion 1-18 cabinet and biamping it, but I never did get around to it.

I used to have a couple of Stewart World 1.2 amps for a rig with an Alembic preamp. It sounded very good for my Zons. One day I tried the W1.2 in my stereo but was not very impressed in that application. I have an Aragon 24K preamp with the Aragon 2004 power amp driving Mangeplanar MG-1Cs with modified crossovers to match the bass and tweeter panels more closely. I found the W1.2 to be kind of one dimensional and harsh compared to the spaciousness and wonderful, almost tube-like presentation of the 2004. but then I suppose the Stewarts were not really intended for High End stereos.

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Sun Jul 06, 2003 6:58 pm

If you are getting too much boominess out of an SVT try boosting the lower mids, middle rocker switch to the left to 220 hz, and set the knob to about 3 or 4 o'clock, and cut back on the bass pickup a bit. If you experiment with one you will find a very defined solid punchy tone with no boominess. I use flatwounds with a newer 4003, treble all the way up including bright switch, mid as before and bass rocker usually in the middle or ultra low, and bass knob set at about 3 to 4 o'clock.

bassman_bob · Post by **bassman_bob** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 9:54 am

This is for Philco. Read your thread with interest; isn't the "lots of small speakers" the old Bose approach ? Also, I've never heard one, but doesn't SWR make an eight 8's bass cabinet ?

bigbajo60 · Post by **bigbajo60** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 11:27 am

That SWR cab would be the "Henry the 8 x 8"... a friend of mine has one... it definitely RUMBLES!!!

And speaking of the "Bose approach", I think it was around 1982 that the band I was in played through what I still consider one of the most EXCELLENT sounding PA systems I've ever heard! It consisted of about 30 Bose 802 cabinets on each side of the stage, with some 402's as wedge and sidefill monitors. Now obviously, there was MORE than enough amplifier power for the setup, but man... THAT was an eye(and ear)-opening introduction to the potential of LOTS 'o Little Speakers!

philco · Post by **philco** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 2:08 pm

Robert, I have seen that SWR Henry the 8x8, but never heard one. Nice to see that people are realizing that little speakers have a wider bandwidth. What Bose did with the 901 was bounce the sound off the back wall and claimed it would give you concert hall ambient sound. It was a sales gimmick, as the dimensions of a listening room don't allow that. But is WAS different, if unrealistic, and Bose made a killing. J. Gordon Holt (in whose ears, and integrity, audiophiles can trust) did a Bose 901 review long ago when Stereophile was an honest publication, and Bose tried to slap a lawsuit on Stereophile and suspended all future advertising with the magazine.

Jeffrey, I have read about Aragon which is a direct competitor for my B&K gear. People who wanted "tube sound without the mess" would opt for B&K, while those seeking a more etched high end sound choose the Aragon. The next wave of high quality bass amps will probably come from "defecting" audiophile designers. Bass amps need NOT be the all-out distortion boxes that guitar amps are. Phil Jones appears to be one such designer, as well as Andy Lewis of Acme Sound.

It will be a great day when companies such as Conrad-Johnson decide to made musical instrument amps instead of just audiophile amps. The T500 tube head that Phil Jones makes seems to be just such an amp head. Like most audiophile gear, players had best not expect cheap prices. An old Conrad-Johnson Premier 1 would probably work just as well for bass players, since it was a 200WPC stereo tube amp. Just try to find one though, because people who own them know what they have, and every one I ever saw on the used market was bought almost immediately at a hefty price. No lesser person than Bascom King declared it his favorite amp in the whole world. It weighs about 135#, so if you think an SVT head is heavy..............

jps · Post by **jps** » Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:14 pm

Actually I don't find the Aragons to be etched at all, but this may be because my Maggies have a very natural high end that is not exagerated like many so called hi fi speakers. It would be very interesting indeed if high end companies produced bass amps, I can see it now: Audio Research vs. Airtight or Mark Levinson vs. Krell( which my Aragons are closer to since Dan D'Agostino designed the Aragons using designs from earlier Krells) "The High End Shoot-out" in The Audiophile Bass Performer Magazine( Bassophile?). But of course on the speaker front we wouldn't want to leave out Martin Logan "Bass Statements" vs. Apogee "Bass Divas", would we?!

philco · Post by **philco** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:40 pm

Jeffrey, the very best bass reproduction I EVER heard was from a Vandersteen Model 5 at a dealer that really knew how to set them up. They have their own built in bass amps and you can align the bass to your particular room. It was the first time I ever heard bass without any discernible peaks and dips throughout the bass range. That's a design feature bass players could use. I can't afford them, but if I could I would own them. I really liked Maggie speakers, but I chose Vandersteen because of superior low bass response. I measured useable 25 Hz response in my listening room from my Model 2Ci speakers. I'm about to install a SansAmp RBI into the system. I have determined that it works better through a clean system than into a guitar or bass amp. I think that is why some people like Bob Ampeg have no use for those SansAmp DI bass boxes. They were mainly designed for CLEAN systems. Tech Support at Tech 21 NYC told me so. The RBI killed my Marshall tone when I used it on my AVT20/B102 combo, but it sang through my B&K/Polk Audio bedroom system. I could get a close approximation of the Marshall when running the RBI through that clean system. I also suspect many old PA systems are so colored as to render any kind of accurate modeling a rather hopeless task. The RBI works better at getting a good useful tone than trying to exactly model any bass amp. If you want big bass in a big room, get an SVT rig. Get an RBI if you own an audiophile system and play bass at home. The RBI could work if the venue has a good CLEAN PA system and an audiophile type sound man. I will leave it to working players to tell us how often that happens to be the case.

Vandersteen and Magneplanar have some nice speakers that anybody of modest means can afford. Some audiophile brands are way overpriced and I would hate to see that philosophy extended to musical instrument amps, but some boutique amps are already headed that way. Richard Vandersteen has access to the unique Nestorovic bass alignment patent and design formulas, so it would be interesting to see him design some bass guitar cabinets. His speakers are solidly constructed and very reliable. I'm not a fan of conventional bass reflex and folded horn cabinets. The Vandersteen speakers are a bass reflex design I can live with. Otherwise, give me acoustic suspension bass any day. Panel speakers have to be HUGE to give deep bass with any efficiency, and then they beam the highs very narrowly, except for the patented design that Sound Lab employs for wide dispersion of highs. Only Sound Lab has solved all the electrostatic bugaboos. It would be interesting to see Sound Lab do permanently installed PA systems in music theaters using their patented electrostatic designs, but they would cost a small fortune. Still, veteran reviewers like J. Gordon Holt and Dick Olsher who have heard it all chose Sound Lab speakers for their personal use.

I think bass players will see some huge changes in amps during the next 10 years.

jps · Post by **jps** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 4:43 pm

Somehow I can't see a Soundlab Bass system anytime soon. I've never heard Soundlabs in person, only JGH's comments about them over the years. One advantage for me as far as the Maggies are concerned is that they are apartment friendly speakers. I do miss the bottom octave but if I ever get a house I may try the Bag End Infrasub system to augment the bottom end.

It has been a while since I've listened to Vandersteens but they were excellent sounding whenever I had heard them. Have you ever tried the Wilson Watt/Puppies for bass with the RBI? That might be interesting.

I wonder, are there many audiophiles on this forum?

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 5:41 pm

Hi Phil,
I've never tried a SansAmp, but I'm sure I would be against them if I had the opportunity to try one, haha. No I'm joking of course, but I like to keep as simple as possible. I didn't even own a tuner until a couple of years ago. I'm not against new technology, I'm just happy with the sound I get, I like to yank the sound out of my bass and amps with my hands.
SVT's aren't as dirty as you would think, but then again they are not hi fidelity amps either, the specs are something like 300 WRMS with 1-2 % distortion, less of course at lower output. If they are set up right with good matched tubes they are very clean.
Someone here mentioned that Geddy Lee uses SansAmps, I think that he got one of the best bass sounds I have ever heard, if that is from his SansAmps I'm all for it (for him of course). With the music I play I wouldn't have any use for one.

rickengrowl · Post by **rickengrowl** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 6:07 pm

I had a genuine 70's SVT (yea, the one w/the fridge cab) and I admit I miss it. But what I don't miss at all is moving 250 lbs of gear each time I gig. I won't go back to any amp of that size, unless this is completely necessary. At this time, nothing says I need that.

I have a B-100R (hey, only 65 lbs) and a SansAmp Bass Driver D.I. At this time, that's enough for me. And if I ever needed more power and features, before considering a monster amp, I'd probably turn to a BA-115HP or something like that.

This means I would not spend a buck for an SVT or a 370, unless I absolutely need one.

All the best,
JL

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 6:25 pm

Isn't the B-100R a solid state 100 watt Ampeg self contained amp with a 15" speaker in it? If it is what I am thinking of I have two B-15T's which are very similiar if not the same thing packaged differently. They are 100 watts with 4 tones, and a 15". I use them a lot for small rooms, and like the sound. Sometimes I'll use the two 15"s with the SVT head, which really sounds nice, just doesn't fill the room like the SVT cabs.

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Tue Jul 08, 2003 6:43 pm

Hey Bob ... I was playing through an ampeg svt again last night ... and you were right if you turn up the treble then it sounds better ... it is a good amp but not perfect ...

most guys who play through the svt use it to create an annoying too boomy rumbling undefined bass sound ... not good ...

The Pod as a front end tone shaper helps a lot ...