OK, I admit, I love my Marshall 100w tube head, probably even more than any gtr I've ever owned. It gives me the sound of my dreams, regardless of the gtr that is lucky enough to go through it.
SOOOO....tubes? What's the differance? What will tubes add or take away from the basic sound of a tube amp? Tighter, dirtier, more powerful, tonal differances?
The quest for tube knowledge begins!
Valves for the novice!
Moderator: jingle_jangle
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tony_carey
- Advanced Member
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Valves for the novice!
'Rickenbacker'...what a name! After all these years, it still thrills me.
Tony: Here we are to help within six minutes. Notwithstanding the great comments you are going to receive here, I recommend that you have a look at TheTubeStore.com. It is full of valuable information regarding the tonality of tubes. They have great reviews of most tubes.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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tony_carey
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"One of the triodes of this tube is usually operated as a cathode follower, which provides low impedance drive to the tone "stack". It may also be used in some 1960s lead models as a simple phase inverter. This means that triode's cathode operates more than 100 volts above ground."
I was rather hoping for something in English!!!!
Seriously, thanks for the link Peter, which I will study over the coming days. However, if anyone can translate in the intervening period, I would be grateful...
I was rather hoping for something in English!!!!
Seriously, thanks for the link Peter, which I will study over the coming days. However, if anyone can translate in the intervening period, I would be grateful...
'Rickenbacker'...what a name! After all these years, it still thrills me.
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trancedental
- Junior Member
- Posts: 195
- Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 4:42 am
Just pick up some original US / English tubes on EBay, Mullards Brimars, RCA, GE, etc
Pre amp tubes usually make the most difference in sound, they are at the start of the signal chain, Power Tubes are harder to get in pairs of quartets so unless you've got money to burn buy new ones.
I've picked up quite a few old cheap pres £5-10 each mostly cheaper than new ones. I've probably got about 3-4 dozen of old US & English Pres in my stash.
Ask on the www.plexipalace.com forums about Pres for your Marshall I would start with some Brimars or Mullards!
Pre amp tubes usually make the most difference in sound, they are at the start of the signal chain, Power Tubes are harder to get in pairs of quartets so unless you've got money to burn buy new ones.
I've picked up quite a few old cheap pres £5-10 each mostly cheaper than new ones. I've probably got about 3-4 dozen of old US & English Pres in my stash.
Ask on the www.plexipalace.com forums about Pres for your Marshall I would start with some Brimars or Mullards!
Destroy DJ Rap & Synths / Robot Music!
I'm assuming you don't want a technical description of what you are quoting, but I can try if you want it. Below is more of a fuzzy description of how tubes warm my cold, icy heart.
So, I started with solid state, then had a slew of tube amps and then I went back to solid state for a while and now I'm all tubes in everything.
Solid state circuits can imitate tube states very well. Think about the "tube screamer" which does a phenomenal job of catching a particular drive characteristic of an overdriven tube. Some of the expensive other stomp boxes and amps do this well, plus start venturing into the area of "touch" that we associate with a tube amp.
For me, there is a strange added dimension of a tube amp. I haven't found a stom pbox or solid state amp that can give me the dimensional feel of a tube amp. Also, a lot of tube amps leave me cold (some because they are biased that way, and the tube never gets to express its capabilities.) Also, just the difference between sets of output tubes, let alone preamp tubes is incredible.
So, the immediate first difference for me is most easily articulated when pushing an amp past the distortion point. If I vary a little with my finger volume or just a bit with the volume knob on my guitar, I can experience a very dynamic variation in tone- from good clean to nasty- all sounding like they came from one flowing organic entity.
I never got that sort of sensation with my SS gear. It, to some degree treats signal more "samey", so the softer bits come out mostly just lower in volume and with just less character. The funny thing here is that to the sweaty people who might be writhing in a prehistoric mating ritual in front of me or someone sitting in the 3rd row of a concert, I'm not convinced that _they_ can discern the difference. They might actually prefer that I use my modeling SS amp for the wacky effects.
But I can tell the difference. If I know the amp is going to sing to me when I play a note, I'm going to play that note like it is the only thing I do all night and if I do it right, even on a bad night I can say, "yeah, but that major chord that I played on the sustaining end of Happy Together made me glad I play music." This sort of feeling has never hit me when I played through SS gear.
I alluded to another big realization above. There is nothing like finding your favorite tube combination that speaks to you. I finally killed off one of my favorite output tubes and I can't wait until Groove Tubes starts making them (GT6CA7GE) again. In the meantime, I'll probably try out their 6L6GE in hopes that they were able to do the same thing to it.
So, I started with solid state, then had a slew of tube amps and then I went back to solid state for a while and now I'm all tubes in everything.
Solid state circuits can imitate tube states very well. Think about the "tube screamer" which does a phenomenal job of catching a particular drive characteristic of an overdriven tube. Some of the expensive other stomp boxes and amps do this well, plus start venturing into the area of "touch" that we associate with a tube amp.
For me, there is a strange added dimension of a tube amp. I haven't found a stom pbox or solid state amp that can give me the dimensional feel of a tube amp. Also, a lot of tube amps leave me cold (some because they are biased that way, and the tube never gets to express its capabilities.) Also, just the difference between sets of output tubes, let alone preamp tubes is incredible.
So, the immediate first difference for me is most easily articulated when pushing an amp past the distortion point. If I vary a little with my finger volume or just a bit with the volume knob on my guitar, I can experience a very dynamic variation in tone- from good clean to nasty- all sounding like they came from one flowing organic entity.
I never got that sort of sensation with my SS gear. It, to some degree treats signal more "samey", so the softer bits come out mostly just lower in volume and with just less character. The funny thing here is that to the sweaty people who might be writhing in a prehistoric mating ritual in front of me or someone sitting in the 3rd row of a concert, I'm not convinced that _they_ can discern the difference. They might actually prefer that I use my modeling SS amp for the wacky effects.
But I can tell the difference. If I know the amp is going to sing to me when I play a note, I'm going to play that note like it is the only thing I do all night and if I do it right, even on a bad night I can say, "yeah, but that major chord that I played on the sustaining end of Happy Together made me glad I play music." This sort of feeling has never hit me when I played through SS gear.
I alluded to another big realization above. There is nothing like finding your favorite tube combination that speaks to you. I finally killed off one of my favorite output tubes and I can't wait until Groove Tubes starts making them (GT6CA7GE) again. In the meantime, I'll probably try out their 6L6GE in hopes that they were able to do the same thing to it.
"rubber heads don't dent easily"
yeeesh. I'm a genius. You meant specific tubes characters.
New tubes:
Preamp: I like the Ei 12ax7s (hopefully the factory is going again)- they have lots of warmth and tone throughout the full spectrum. I also like the new Tung Sol 12ax7s.
Power: My favorite is the GT6CA7GE (like an EL34 on steroids) I would look into their GT6L6 for a little harder sound. The Tung Sol reissue of the 6550 is a good sounding tube.
NOS:
My Brimar CV4004 is very special. I also like the Telefunken 12AX7.
Everybody raves about the Mullard EL34 output tubes. I can't really afford to find out if I can.
New tubes:
Preamp: I like the Ei 12ax7s (hopefully the factory is going again)- they have lots of warmth and tone throughout the full spectrum. I also like the new Tung Sol 12ax7s.
Power: My favorite is the GT6CA7GE (like an EL34 on steroids) I would look into their GT6L6 for a little harder sound. The Tung Sol reissue of the 6550 is a good sounding tube.
NOS:
My Brimar CV4004 is very special. I also like the Telefunken 12AX7.
Everybody raves about the Mullard EL34 output tubes. I can't really afford to find out if I can.
"rubber heads don't dent easily"
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soundmasterg
- RRF Consultant
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- Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 1:06 pm
Well Tony, there is alot to learn, as you can see from looking around a little one the web. Also, since the operation of tubes/valves involves math, and technical stuff, then eventually you have to learn that aspect of it to get a complete understanding. Having said that though, you can glaze over it and just come back to it later if you want to understand it. If you read something and get the basic gist of what they are talking about, then that gives you a starting point.
You'll find that one tube brand/type will sound great in one amp, and not as good in another. I love the EI 12ax7/ECC83 that Mark mentioned in my Vox AC30, but I don't really like them in Fender amps. Moreover, they are often microphonic and inconsistant quality, and lastly EI stopped making tubes in August. So unless someone buys up the old tube manufacturing machines they had and starts using them again, or EI starts up production of that tube again, it looks like it will be diminishing. The cachet to the EI 12ax7 tubes were that they were made on old Telefunken(West German) equipment, and Telefunken 12ax7 tubes were probably the best sounding hi-fi tube ever made, and lasted more than twice as long as any other 12ax7 type in operation. They also sound great in certain places in guitar/bass amps.....but they're WAY spendy nowadays. The new Russian made Tung-Sol 12ax7's are very good quality, and nice sounding tubes that sound similar to my ears to 60's GE 12ax7's that were used in all the Fender amps. I haven't tried them in Marshalls or Voxes yet, but in Fenders they are VERY nice.
The basic sound of an amp is due to the circuit used, rather than the tubes. Within that circuit however, the tubes ARE there, and since they work like valves (maybe the British name for them IS better??), they do have a large influence on the sound. The first thing to look for when getting power tubes is quality. You want to make sure they can handle the voltage of the circuit you're putting them into. Many vintage Marshalls run very high plate and screen voltages, and many EL34's can't handle that and won't last long. There are some types tat are made today that CAn handle those conditions, and most NOS can, although I wouldn't use Siemens in an old, high voltage Marshall because they can't handle the high voltages on the screens. Marshalls can be anywhere from 400v on the plates to 650v on the plates, and the screens are usually a couple volts less than the plates.
The next consideration is the sound, and since everyone hears differently, that is a crapshoot. You can get general ideas of sound from reviews, but you really have to experience it yourself to know for sure. Good modern tube types for your Marshall to try for quality and sound would be the Svetlana/Winged C EL34's, (NOT the New Sensor Svetlana however), JJ EL34, JJ KT77, EH EL34, Chinese EL34. Pretty much any NOS except for the Siemens I mentioned woul dbe great.
For preamp tubes, you want them to be reliable and not have microphonics, and last well. ALL modern tubes won't last as long as NOS stuff because the manufacturers today don't use as good of metals in the tubes, and they don't have them on the vacuum machines as long, so there are more impurities to the vacuum in new tubes, and it poisens the cathodes quicker. Having said that, there are many new manufacture tubes that last well and sound as good or better than older ones. The new Tung-Sol 12ax7's are great in all respects, the JJ ECC83 and ECC803 have good reputations for some people, the Sovtek 12ax7LPS is good, the EI's are great when you get one that isn't microphonic...really you just have to experiment to get a sound that works for you. Any NOS 12ax7 types will sound great and last longer than new types, and preamp tubes last a long time anyway. Since you're in the UK, see if you can find some surplus places where you can get used old stock tubes for a reasonable price to experiment with, and you'll find lots of Mullard, Brimar, GEC, M-O-V, Phillips, Amperex, and probably some Telefunkens too. You've got to watch getting tubes on ebay, especially if they are used. Unless you have a tester, and the seller tested them with a good mutual conductance tester, you don't really know how much life the tubes wiil have.
With the preamp tubes, you will notice the biggest difference in brands by changing the first preamp tube, commonly known as V1. This is the one that is usually farthest away from the power tubes. A 12AX7/ECC83 has the same pinout as the 12AT7/ECC81, 12AU7/ECC82, and many others. So you can experiement with different higher and lower gain tubes to see what it sounds like.
You mentioned above,
""One of the triodes of this tube is usually operated as a cathode follower, which provides low impedance drive to the tone "stack". It may also be used in some 1960s lead models as a simple phase inverter. This means that triode's cathode operates more than 100 volts above ground."
I was rather hoping for something in English!!!! ""
what this refers to is the particular 12AX7 in your amp that is right before the tone stack. Usually on a Marshall its the 2nd tube from the end of the chassis, (V2), and specifically the 2nd half of that tube. Each 12AX7 has two triodes in the bottle, and the 2nd half of it is the one that is used for the cathode follower they are talking about. Because of how the cathode follower circuit works, the voltage on the cathode can, in some circuits, go higher than the specification for heater-to-cathode voltage of the 12AX7 tube. Most tubes will hold up to some abuse here, but there are some that will not, specifically the Sovtek 12AX7LP and 12AX7LPS. The circuit can be changed to where it isn't a concern anymore without changing the sound, and Marshall runs some of their amps slightly past the rated spec, but just make sure to put a tube other than the Sovtek ones I mentioned 'in that particular position in the amp,' and you won't have to worry about it. The Sovtek 12AX7LPS sounds great in the V1 position in many amps.
Lastly, if you want to learn about tube amps, there are some really great amp bbs sites around where you can read and ask questions. There are also free downloads for some books that have been scanned and some lessons on tube amps and how they work. There are also many good books in current publication that are out there, from beginner level on up. If you want some info about the books and the sites for the bbs's and the free downloads, let me know and I can post some here. I've already gotten tired of typing this particular post! Hope what I typed is helpful though Tony?
Mark, in a Marshall circuit, the Mullard EL34's absolutely RULE. I happen to have an almost new quad that I got in a Dynaco Stereo 70 I paid $10 for, but I'm holding on to them for recording.
You'll find that one tube brand/type will sound great in one amp, and not as good in another. I love the EI 12ax7/ECC83 that Mark mentioned in my Vox AC30, but I don't really like them in Fender amps. Moreover, they are often microphonic and inconsistant quality, and lastly EI stopped making tubes in August. So unless someone buys up the old tube manufacturing machines they had and starts using them again, or EI starts up production of that tube again, it looks like it will be diminishing. The cachet to the EI 12ax7 tubes were that they were made on old Telefunken(West German) equipment, and Telefunken 12ax7 tubes were probably the best sounding hi-fi tube ever made, and lasted more than twice as long as any other 12ax7 type in operation. They also sound great in certain places in guitar/bass amps.....but they're WAY spendy nowadays. The new Russian made Tung-Sol 12ax7's are very good quality, and nice sounding tubes that sound similar to my ears to 60's GE 12ax7's that were used in all the Fender amps. I haven't tried them in Marshalls or Voxes yet, but in Fenders they are VERY nice.
The basic sound of an amp is due to the circuit used, rather than the tubes. Within that circuit however, the tubes ARE there, and since they work like valves (maybe the British name for them IS better??), they do have a large influence on the sound. The first thing to look for when getting power tubes is quality. You want to make sure they can handle the voltage of the circuit you're putting them into. Many vintage Marshalls run very high plate and screen voltages, and many EL34's can't handle that and won't last long. There are some types tat are made today that CAn handle those conditions, and most NOS can, although I wouldn't use Siemens in an old, high voltage Marshall because they can't handle the high voltages on the screens. Marshalls can be anywhere from 400v on the plates to 650v on the plates, and the screens are usually a couple volts less than the plates.
The next consideration is the sound, and since everyone hears differently, that is a crapshoot. You can get general ideas of sound from reviews, but you really have to experience it yourself to know for sure. Good modern tube types for your Marshall to try for quality and sound would be the Svetlana/Winged C EL34's, (NOT the New Sensor Svetlana however), JJ EL34, JJ KT77, EH EL34, Chinese EL34. Pretty much any NOS except for the Siemens I mentioned woul dbe great.
For preamp tubes, you want them to be reliable and not have microphonics, and last well. ALL modern tubes won't last as long as NOS stuff because the manufacturers today don't use as good of metals in the tubes, and they don't have them on the vacuum machines as long, so there are more impurities to the vacuum in new tubes, and it poisens the cathodes quicker. Having said that, there are many new manufacture tubes that last well and sound as good or better than older ones. The new Tung-Sol 12ax7's are great in all respects, the JJ ECC83 and ECC803 have good reputations for some people, the Sovtek 12ax7LPS is good, the EI's are great when you get one that isn't microphonic...really you just have to experiment to get a sound that works for you. Any NOS 12ax7 types will sound great and last longer than new types, and preamp tubes last a long time anyway. Since you're in the UK, see if you can find some surplus places where you can get used old stock tubes for a reasonable price to experiment with, and you'll find lots of Mullard, Brimar, GEC, M-O-V, Phillips, Amperex, and probably some Telefunkens too. You've got to watch getting tubes on ebay, especially if they are used. Unless you have a tester, and the seller tested them with a good mutual conductance tester, you don't really know how much life the tubes wiil have.
With the preamp tubes, you will notice the biggest difference in brands by changing the first preamp tube, commonly known as V1. This is the one that is usually farthest away from the power tubes. A 12AX7/ECC83 has the same pinout as the 12AT7/ECC81, 12AU7/ECC82, and many others. So you can experiement with different higher and lower gain tubes to see what it sounds like.
You mentioned above,
""One of the triodes of this tube is usually operated as a cathode follower, which provides low impedance drive to the tone "stack". It may also be used in some 1960s lead models as a simple phase inverter. This means that triode's cathode operates more than 100 volts above ground."
I was rather hoping for something in English!!!! ""
what this refers to is the particular 12AX7 in your amp that is right before the tone stack. Usually on a Marshall its the 2nd tube from the end of the chassis, (V2), and specifically the 2nd half of that tube. Each 12AX7 has two triodes in the bottle, and the 2nd half of it is the one that is used for the cathode follower they are talking about. Because of how the cathode follower circuit works, the voltage on the cathode can, in some circuits, go higher than the specification for heater-to-cathode voltage of the 12AX7 tube. Most tubes will hold up to some abuse here, but there are some that will not, specifically the Sovtek 12AX7LP and 12AX7LPS. The circuit can be changed to where it isn't a concern anymore without changing the sound, and Marshall runs some of their amps slightly past the rated spec, but just make sure to put a tube other than the Sovtek ones I mentioned 'in that particular position in the amp,' and you won't have to worry about it. The Sovtek 12AX7LPS sounds great in the V1 position in many amps.
Lastly, if you want to learn about tube amps, there are some really great amp bbs sites around where you can read and ask questions. There are also free downloads for some books that have been scanned and some lessons on tube amps and how they work. There are also many good books in current publication that are out there, from beginner level on up. If you want some info about the books and the sites for the bbs's and the free downloads, let me know and I can post some here. I've already gotten tired of typing this particular post! Hope what I typed is helpful though Tony?
Mark, in a Marshall circuit, the Mullard EL34's absolutely RULE. I happen to have an almost new quad that I got in a Dynaco Stereo 70 I paid $10 for, but I'm holding on to them for recording.
Ya got that Tony?
now the 'kind' of tube ya buy is related to the 'kind' of music you play/like.
Its kinda like what's best-blonde or brunette, (sorry ladies). IMHO there is no 'best' tube for all applications. But since you got a Marshall I'd say the reissue Tung-Sol's up front and Valve Art KT-66's behind.
But if you got a budget like Bill Gates, then GEC KT-66 and Telefunken 12AX7 etc...
now the 'kind' of tube ya buy is related to the 'kind' of music you play/like.
Its kinda like what's best-blonde or brunette, (sorry ladies). IMHO there is no 'best' tube for all applications. But since you got a Marshall I'd say the reissue Tung-Sol's up front and Valve Art KT-66's behind.
But if you got a budget like Bill Gates, then GEC KT-66 and Telefunken 12AX7 etc...
Buy it before someone else does