Just when I thought I'd seen them all . . .

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:12 pm

If I had a better workshop I would be tempted to make a bass like this one based on the 650 guitar ...

zoomduck · Post by **zoomduck** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:41 pm

I like that Lennon look . How much $$ ???

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:35 am

Once again, we're over the line...yes, it's well-made, at least from the pictures.

But it violates virtually every single trade dress feature of Rickenbacker guitars, so what's to distinguish it from a cheap Asian knockoff, in those terms?

And here we are, heaping praise upon it while demonstrating exactly why RIC so aggressively protects itself.

It looks like a Rick, so that it had folks here on the most pro-Rick Forum on the web, asking for pictures so we could see if it was the "real thing". If it was real, Don't you think that John Hall would have said something before the pics were posted?

It may have started out as a "one-off", but now that Howie's estate is selling it, it's moved into the range of "commerce" or "for profit".

It has a Rick TRC/nameplate, stuck on a knockoff, for pete's sake! Ditto the jackplate, which was obtained through RIC, probably under some false pretense.

The body shape, the pickguard shape, knobs and placement, headstock shape...It's beautiful but it's a damned shame that your average luthier (and this guy was way above average in his skills!) doesn't understand the trade dress issue. This is because it's become "accepted wisdom" that due to Fender and Gibson's failure to protect their individuality, so anyone can copy their instruments, folks simply assume that they can do this with EVERYTHING.

Not so.

If it was a terrible luthiery job, we'd be up here calling it "****" and "garbage", but the difference is not in how well it's made, but how much it looks like a genuine Rickenbacker instrument.

bassduke49 · Post by **bassduke49** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:37 am

John A., it's an interesting instrument, and may or may not appear in the book. When it first was presented to me, it was described as a custom made Rickenbacker. As further information became available, it became clear that it only has design features from several Rick models, but not made by RIC. It may never be clear who actually put it together, or if it was designed by Epstein. Howie's gone and his survivors know little about the collection. I photographed it while I had the chance, just in case it would be relevant to the bass book. If it had been made special by RIC, it would definitely be in the book. Now, unless I have a chapter on "almosts," "customs," or "clones," I'm doubtful.

Barry, it's going on auction (not eBay). Look for an ad in Vintage Guitar which should be coming out in the next week or two.

teeder · Post by **teeder** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:47 am

I'm really loving the style! I wonder how it sounds?

bob_atherton · Post by **bob_atherton** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:56 am

Paul, very interesting post. As you say just because it is a well made instrument, played by a well known musician doesn't make it OK, in fact in my book it makes it worse.

I'm not suggesting that this action could or should be taken, but would John Hall be able to get this lot removed from the forthcoming auction?

bugman · Post by **bugman** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:07 am

If Rickenbacker offered this as a model I'd buy one in a heartbeat. That is a cool looking bass!

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:12 am

I would think that, at the least, he could make them remove the TRC (with the TRC attached, the item is "misbranded" and therefore fraudulent).

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:31 am

From a purely functional point of view ... that is a pretty bass but I think the body would not resonate well on the lower notes ...

gareth · Post by **gareth** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:03 am

I'll jump in here and plant my *** firmly on the fence with this one. As much as I agree with Paul, and he's been kind enough to explain in person to me John Hall's thinking on copyright, I must disagree with him to a certain extent here.

In my mind, there's a huge difference between a company infringing RIC's domain to exploit their trademark and make financial gain from it, and someone that is clearly an enthusiast whose love of the brand is such that he would go to the trouble of creating what is essentially a homage. Where I part company with the owner is when he installed a RIC TRC and jackplate on it. That is where it crossed the line, and why the fence post is jammed in me where it is.

Now of course, it's in a grey area, as it's about to go into the world as a Rickenbacker. Maybe the estate could be asked to remove the jackplate and TRC and replace them with blank ones. It might be nice if RIC could offer that service for them this one time.

If I was Mr Hall. I'd want to buy it and hang it up in the factory somewhere. I see the fakers as a slap in the face to the company. This I see as a very different animal.

teeder · Post by **teeder** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:10 am

Paul,

Did you notice if it had a center block of wood or was it completely hollow?

henry5 · Post by **henry5** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:29 am

Pretty as it is, and homage though it certainly is, unless it was in some way shape or form originally built by Rickenbacker (which apparently it wasn't), then I have to agree with Paul. A fake is a fake is a fake. One fake isn't more acceptable than another simply because it's more desirable.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:31 am

Gareth, you have described the thinking of "the other side" of this very well. If only the TRC and jackplate were the only things at issue here. But it does come down to body shape, general placement of pickups, and pickguard shape, too, as well as shape of fret markers and headstock. All of these design elements have been in use by RIC for a very long time, and now the guitar is passing into counterfeit status by selling it...

teeder · Post by **teeder** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:41 am

Are you saying no one can use that pick-up placement without infringement?

bassduke49 · Post by **bassduke49** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:28 am

Just got this from Rick Turner:

Just a word on the Howie Epstein "Ric" basses...

I did not build them, but I did make the pickups and I did the wiring. The builder (and incredibly skilled luthier) wishes to remain anonymous for obvious reasons, though he and I have been in touch about all this.

The basses were finished up in my shop in Topanga Canyon in 1995.

Rick Turner