Rickenbacker export: 335s or 1997?

casinoman · Post by **casinoman** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:38 pm

Hello everybody, though I'm new to the forum, I'm not new the world of Rickenbackers. I guess John Williams will remember our hunt for the 2 Comstocks in Amsterdam

Well, here is my question: I was able to pick up a really nice export version of the 335. Unlike others I've seen before, this one dates from May 1969 (s/n IE). A sticker on the back of the headstock indicates that this guitar presumably has originally been sold in Italy. It's got the typical f-hole, but not the black knobs as on the Rose Morrises, but the "american" silver tops. The guitar is in super shape and original from what I can tell, apart from the changed vibrato arm. Question: would you refer to this guitar as a 335s or rather a 1997. From my understanding so far, both are identical apart from the knobs, but I bet there is members of the forum who know much more about these instruments than I do.

rick_ovic · Post by **rick_ovic** » Tue Dec 12, 2006 11:55 pm

Michael, to the best of my knowledge the guitar left the Rickenbacker factory as a model 335S - indicating an export version of the domestic 335.

Rose Morris used their own numbering system, which had no connection to Rickenbacker. The Rose Morris numbering system applied to all sorts of music instruments, and Rickenbacker guitars and basses were assigned 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998 and 1999. Later they added 3261 (the export version of the 4005 bass) and the 3262 (the export version of the convertible 6/12 string).

So, either model number "correctly" applies to your lovely guitar. The silver knobs are a nice touch. You sure don't see many export models after '68. Maybe yours is actually a 335S - never imported by Rose Morris and never actually exported by Rickenbacker? Now THAT would be very cool!

wints · Post by **wints** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:38 am

What case does it have Michael? The original RM's came in a silver case with badge.

Here's one:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/davec88/rick01_small.jpg

Your Fireglo actually looks very '67 or early '68, with the larger yellow in the centre. FG gets much darker in mid 68 and on. If you haven't had a look, take a peek at the pot codes and report back.

casinoman · Post by **casinoman** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:04 am

The case is black with the blue interior as you see it on the picture and no badge, which would support my assumption that it was not imported by Rose Morris. I'll check on the controls later on, but the serial number clearly identifies it as a '69 instrument. Can you really tell the year of construction by the shading of the fireglo? I always thought that in a manual process plus the ageing, there must be a rather great range of finishes, esp. with the fireglos.

tblair · Post by **tblair** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:11 am

Wasn't the Rose Morris deal over with by 1969? Did Rose Morris even deal outside of the Commonwealth?

Italy must've had something else going on- as they have a lot of f-holed instruments from the late sixties that didn't appear elsewhere- 4005s, new-style 360s, etc. ...and those 12-to-six string conversions with the black headstock overlay that pop up from time-to-time.

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:57 am

I tend to agree with Tony; I think there are some 360 round-top(with an f-hole) 12-strings around with 1972 serial numbers, so another arrangement may have existed. The one John Williams had was from the early 70's, IIRC.

rick_ovic · Post by **rick_ovic** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 10:02 am

Anthony, I thought the Rose Morris arrangement had finished by the end of 1968...hence my suspicion that it's a 335S. I think Rose Morris also supplied other parts of Europe outside of the Commonwealth eg Sweden.

casinoman · Post by **casinoman** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 1:30 pm

alright, I checked for the electronics. the control cavity states "exp 345 c", although it clearly is a 2 pickup model. the potentiometers read "31056 137 6808"; if that means the pots are '68, then a production date for the whole guitar of '69 seems quite reasonable; what I think is really cool is that the guitar store the instrument was supposedly sold from originally still exists, Dragani in Pescara, Italy

tblair · Post by **tblair** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:11 pm

The cavity will have the Ric model number- and they tend to be for the maximum model the body is cut for- so 310s say 325, 330s say 345, etc.

wints · Post by **wints** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:00 pm

"Can you really tell the year of construction by the shading of the fireglo?"

Yes Michael, sometimes, and the 67/early 68 is pretty particular to my eye.

The pots are from week 8 of 68 Michael. That's possibly Feb/March which would tie in with the spray pattern of that period. Your guitar may have sat completed until an order came in, and then the jackplate was attached and off it went.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 6:46 am

Your guitar may have sat completed until an order came in, and then the jackplate was attached and off it went.

I'm not going to comment on anything else, but this is not how things were done. A completed guitar might have sat in inventory but a serial plate would have gone on immediately at the end of the production line.

What everyone forgets is the lead time on pots. Sometimes it has been more than a year and these were ordered and delivered in very large batches. It's not so true anymore but back then pots could be 2 or 3 years old before they were used. Depending how the bins were replenished, some could be much older than that.

Pot dates are useful only to establish a "not earlier than" date, nothing more.

Oh, Rose Morris also had plenty of goods shipped to their Australian warehouse as well. No one seems to mention that . . .

tblair · Post by **tblair** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:06 am

I sort of mentioned it... "Did Rose Morris even deal outside of the Commonwealth?"

Italy just seems to have gotten some funky stuff that didn't show up elsewhere in the late sixties... at least that's where the instruments are popping up now. Seems to me I've also seen an Italian ad from the period showing the odd bound f-holed guitars & basses.

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 7:36 am

Yes, there has been earlier discussion on the 360/12 round-top guitars with f-holes, and to be more specific two seperate examples where the peghead routs were filled in due to a conversion from 12 to 6 strings....both of these guitars were in Italy.

karl_teten · Post by **karl_teten** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:42 am

I owned one of these 12 to 6 conversion 365's with an f-hole. I purchased the guitar in a pawn shop in Kerrville, Texas back in 1985.

It had dark brown bakelite plugs in the 12 string routes. Looked nice against the fireglo finish. The pickups were 1964 transitional toasters with the plastic molds.

I was told by the owner of the only music store in Kerrville then that the RIC possibly was one of the guitars that belonged to The 13th Floor Elevators. I found out a few years later that the music store owner was the original drummer for The 13th Floor Elevators!

Wish I still had that guitar.

beefandbones · Post by **beefandbones** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:55 am

I love this forum!