Might Be A 1964 - 320 ?

fab4 · Post by **fab4** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:34 pm

Well this should be fun and I am really interested in everyone's opinion as to the age of this guitar. I bought this guitar awhile ago and have just found the time to post the pics on the web site. I would like to thank Glen Lambert for all the help he provided in identifying elements of the guitar that lead me to believe this may be a 1964 320.

The Story:

The seller who sold me the guitar played rhythm guitar in a Beatle cover band in CA. He bought the guitar in 1978. In the pics you will see a grainy pic of the guitar taken from the bands promo photo in 1978. You will note that the guitar in the pic has only two pick ups and a rather odd looking pic guard.

When Chris bought the guitar it was in bad shape, missing tuners, cracked top under the pick guard, rusty tail piece and jack plate etc. When the pick guard was removed Chris discovered the guitar was routed for a third pick up. So in 1979 it was repaired - third pick up added, original 2 pick ups replaced, tail piece replaced, tuners added, top repaired and refinished, new pick guard, new wiring. I did check the wiring and pots and they are right for Rickenbacker and date to 1979 (R137792). During this repair process the rusted jack plate was replaced and thus the dating dilemma as there is no serial number.

What I have been able to determine (mostly from Glen's help)is this. The headstock appears to be right for a 1964 model as does the heal on the back of the guitar. It is not square but the shape is consistent with Ric's from the early 60's. In one picture it does appear that the guitar was made with a centre block which would date it to 1964 as well. I have included some pics of the original parts that Chris was able to find and he sent them along with the guitar. One interesting piece is the black vaccum formed shell from inside one of the original pick up shells. Glen mentioned this was only used in 1964 while the injection moulding tool was out of action. If the "R" tail piece (seen in the grainy promo photo) was original then this would date the guitar to late 1964. Well that is about it hope the pics tell the story.

jwilli · Post by **jwilli** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:42 pm

Len, this is very interesting. Glen knows his stuff. Too bad the jackplate is missing. Does it have a three piece top?

fab4 · Post by **fab4** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:58 pm

John,

It's really hard to tell (for me anyway). I took the pick ups out as per the photos but I still couldn't be sure. I guess at some point it will need to be looked over by someone who knows what they are looking for.

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:20 am

Is there any Fireglo remaining in any of the channels? If it was a '64, it may have been an RM guitar, and I doubt the 'R' was on it when it was originally built....

fab4 · Post by **fab4** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 3:42 am

John,

No there doesn't appear to be any FG or any other residual colour other than the current blue. The inside control cavity was also sprayed with the refinished colour when it was done in 1979.

studiotwosession · Post by **studiotwosession** » Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:35 pm

Sooner or later it seems like the 375 or so of these that still exist will all be accounted for.

That may solve some serial number mysteries?

fab4 · Post by **fab4** » Wed Aug 30, 2006 11:30 am

Glenn - great comment but I think this one will remain a bit of a mystery. I am planning on returning it to as close to original condition as I can get it and have been stocking up on vintage 60's parts.

Then hopefully Paul would be interested in repairing what needs to be repaired and then refinishing it.

It's only time and money.

rick32559 · Post by **rick32559** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:18 am

I remember going to Bucky`s in Covina back in the early 80`s to see Chris` band "SHOUT". He used to bring that Rick sometimes. He told me once that it could have been a `59 310 but in later years he found out it actually was a 60`s 320. The last time I saw him this guitar had been refinished the dark blue transparent and had a nice flame to the wood.

fab4 · Post by **fab4** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:54 pm

Thanks for the information and Chris indeed played in Shout and that is him in the grainy promo photo holding the yet to be worked on Ric.
During the purchase period we had lots of discussions about the guitar and I think it is a 320 as well. The middle pick up route doesn't look all that professional so most likely was carved by a previous owner. Chris mentioned that when he bought it and took off the wrong pick guard the middle pick up route was there although it was only wired for two pick ups. It is a shame that I cannot actually date it from the jackplate etc. and the inside cavity was sprayed when it was refinished. I think it is looking more like a 1964 modified 320. Anyway a great little guitar - and thanks again

36012 · Post by **36012** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:18 am

The center block mentioned was used on 320s until 1984. I had an 83 320 with one, but the top was 3/8" thick, while a majority of the sixties guitars were around 1/4". It is hard to say certain whether or not it is from the sixties. Rick has in a few instances used older necks or bodies that were laying around from the sixties on guitars in the 70s. Its hard to tell in the picture, but I would also check to see if the original pickup routes are visible. If so, see if it looks like it was done with a forsner drill bit. This was done quite often in the sixties. I do believe they started using routers in the late 60s/early 70s for the pickup routes. The problem with dating these guitars is a lack of consistancy. The consistancy got better throughout the seventies.

dale_fortune · Post by **dale_fortune** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:34 am

In the picture with the blue transparent finish you can see the center block which is the same width as the neck on a 325/320 of that era. You have to know what to look for to see this in the picture, but carefully look and notice the different grain pattern on the top close to the area where the ramp starts to curve up. This is the glue joint for the 3 pieces of Maple that was used to make the body.. Notice the straight lines, the one closest to the pickguard is hard to see, but the other is very visible in the picture. Being off center, this tells you it is a 3 piece body.. I just finished restoring several 60's 325 that were in bad shpe, now I'm about to finish a 1958 and another one for Glenn.

dale_fortune · Post by **dale_fortune** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:33 am

These had short pole piece magnet pickups in the middle and neck. The bridge was drilled with a Forstner bit for the long pole piece magnets.

studiotwosession · Post by **studiotwosession** » Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:44 pm

Mine was in baaad shape. What would we do without Dale?

fab4 · Post by **fab4** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:17 am

Excuse my long absence from the forum as I have been away on business. Well based on my research and the insight of other forum members I am pretty much convinced my guitar is a 1964 – 320 that was modified to a 325 at some point later in its life. It has suffered through the years and will need to be refinished at some point in the future. I have located a set of original tuners, I have the two original pick up covers and the pots and wiring etc. are 1978 Ric parts from the last time the guitar was refinished. I guess I could hold out until I find the right 1964 parts which could be a long, long time which may be a fun thing to do. Then once I have all the bits and pieces I can get it all put back together and redone in a more traditional Ric color scheme. My thanks to all who helped identify the guitar and who gave me clues what to look for.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:38 am

Len, I would suggest another tack, depending upon when you anticipate starting on this guitar: replace the bad old parts with newer substitutes which require no mods; later when you find the parts you need, replacing them one by one or all at once.

This way, you'd have a nice-looking, usable guitar in the meantime.