What's the best way to get a more vintage tone out of my reissue AC-30? If you put the stock reissue at one end of a scale and called that zero, and the holy grail vintage AC-30 at the other end at one hundred, how close to 100 would you get by doing one of:
1. getting some decent NOS tubes
2. replacing the new blues with some vintage blue or silver Celestions
3. getting the full Toneman reissue mod treatment
I imagine that by doing all three, it would end up costing me nearly the same amount as it would to upgrade to an actual vintage AC-30 -- would there be any point, or should I just start looking into importing a vintage one?
Improving tone of AC-30 reissue
Moderator: jingle_jangle
Ryan: What year is your AC-30 reissue, how often do you play it and what make of EL-84 tubes do you have in it presently?
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
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freakbeat
Thanks Don -- I was counting transformers as part of the Toneman upgrade. Don Butler's site says he does the transformers (output and choke) as well as replacing signal path components with carbon comp. I imagine that this is indeed a big part of it, but I'm curious how it compares to getting vintage speakers. I've done some comparisons of 10" ceramic speakers in a Vibrolux (original Oxford, well-worn Vintage 10, and new-but-broken-in Reverend Alltone 1030), and hear a huge difference between vintage and non-vintage when you add overdrive or distortion to the mix (same deal with all other amps I've heard with new or vintage speakers). The vintage speakers have a fat, warm fuzzy sound, while the newer ones sound thin and buzzy. I'm hearing the same thin buzz from the blues in my AC-30, and I'm wondering if it's just the characteristic of the blues, or if it could be much sweeter with some old blues/silvers.
Peter -- I've had it for just under a year now (it's a 2002 model - got it new), and it has seen plenty of use in practice and on stage. It probably has gotten over 100 hours playing time at band volumes (10-11 o'clock), and occasional use at home (much quiter!). The tubes are what came in it when I bought it - Yugoslavian Ei's.
FYI - my main guitar is a 360JG w/toasters, and I use a 330FG w/highgains occasionally, either straight or with a Maxon OD-808.
Peter -- I've had it for just under a year now (it's a 2002 model - got it new), and it has seen plenty of use in practice and on stage. It probably has gotten over 100 hours playing time at band volumes (10-11 o'clock), and occasional use at home (much quiter!). The tubes are what came in it when I bought it - Yugoslavian Ei's.
FYI - my main guitar is a 360JG w/toasters, and I use a 330FG w/highgains occasionally, either straight or with a Maxon OD-808.
IMO, if you want "vintage" AC30 tone, you Gotta have the blue speakers.Admittedly, I have a "fixed tonal reference point"in my mind regarding this amp, but I have heard the RI with Greenback 25s, the Blues, Vintage 30s, and Fane/celestion wanna-be 100+ watters. All sound good as one off examples, but to My ear, Only the Blue[or Real 60s Celestions, if you can find them]
really "do It".Don told me the output transformer contributes around 40% of the tone in an amp.
really "do It".Don told me the output transformer contributes around 40% of the tone in an amp.
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toneman
O.K... haven't been able to get here for a week. Sorry everyone! Been real busy with rehearsals for upcoming shows and fixing /modding amps and pedals. Getting AC installed in the shop this week as it's just too damn hot somedays so this weeks gonna be a **** shoot..anyway..
Speakers: Gotta be Celestions of the AlNiCo variety to get the proper sound. Dick Denny used that speaker as a source reference when designing both the AC-15 and AC-30(although the first TV front AC-15's used a Goodman's Audiom). Let me say this about the "so-called" Greenback reissues...they use the wrong cone and voice coil in the new one's. The original Greenbacks came about from the increasing costs of cobalt as it comes from South Africa. When the Greenbacks came out in `66 they used the same cone & coil as the AlNiCo speaker and was a 20 watt speaker. If you heard an old, original greenback you'd say it sounds pretty good. My opinion is that the new one's sound.. well.. like ****! No comparison to the original version. I'd say it's about 60% there but that's about it.
It also takes about 20 hours of playing to break in the Blue Celestion.
NOS tubes: Most new AC-30's come with Ei's which sound really great in an AC-30. Now, that being said, I do have all old Mullard & Brimar preamp tubes in my 3 AC-30's and as well in my old AC-15 and AC-50. I use Ei Elites for output tubes for EL-84's in a few of them and some NOS British military Mullard's for the rest. I bought a bunch on one of my trips to the U.K. in the mid nineties. I still find decent tubes/valves on Ebay occasionally.
On a new AC-30 RI I'd say that o/p tranny, choke, filters and signal path parts are the first things to replace and AlNiCo speakers are just as important to that equasion. You can always buy the Weber Blue Dog 15-watt versions for around $165. each. Sound pretty damn good and extremly hair splitting close to the Celestion's.
Tubes/Valves aren't quite as important as this other stuff though. I think if you had a set of Ei's in your amp that would do the trick!
BTW, if your AC-30 has a 100+ hours on the same set of EL-84's then it's time to replace them! Leave the preamp valves unless you've got a duff one. Rectifier valve needs only replacing when it goes bad. I've seen many old Vox AC-30's and Marshall JTM-45's with the original Mullard GZ-34's and they test just fine after nearly 40 years use.
With original AC-30's w/ Top boost going for $3K and up now I think it makes more sense to buy a reissue and convert it. At least if it gets nicked(stolen) you can buy a replacement pretty easy. Can't do that with an old one quite so well. I've gotten alot of touring bands who would rather leave the old JMI-era AC-30 at home. they buy a reissue and send it to me to convert and take that out on tour. I've done 4 of these just for "3rd Eye Blind"..
Speakers: Gotta be Celestions of the AlNiCo variety to get the proper sound. Dick Denny used that speaker as a source reference when designing both the AC-15 and AC-30(although the first TV front AC-15's used a Goodman's Audiom). Let me say this about the "so-called" Greenback reissues...they use the wrong cone and voice coil in the new one's. The original Greenbacks came about from the increasing costs of cobalt as it comes from South Africa. When the Greenbacks came out in `66 they used the same cone & coil as the AlNiCo speaker and was a 20 watt speaker. If you heard an old, original greenback you'd say it sounds pretty good. My opinion is that the new one's sound.. well.. like ****! No comparison to the original version. I'd say it's about 60% there but that's about it.
It also takes about 20 hours of playing to break in the Blue Celestion.
NOS tubes: Most new AC-30's come with Ei's which sound really great in an AC-30. Now, that being said, I do have all old Mullard & Brimar preamp tubes in my 3 AC-30's and as well in my old AC-15 and AC-50. I use Ei Elites for output tubes for EL-84's in a few of them and some NOS British military Mullard's for the rest. I bought a bunch on one of my trips to the U.K. in the mid nineties. I still find decent tubes/valves on Ebay occasionally.
On a new AC-30 RI I'd say that o/p tranny, choke, filters and signal path parts are the first things to replace and AlNiCo speakers are just as important to that equasion. You can always buy the Weber Blue Dog 15-watt versions for around $165. each. Sound pretty damn good and extremly hair splitting close to the Celestion's.
Tubes/Valves aren't quite as important as this other stuff though. I think if you had a set of Ei's in your amp that would do the trick!
BTW, if your AC-30 has a 100+ hours on the same set of EL-84's then it's time to replace them! Leave the preamp valves unless you've got a duff one. Rectifier valve needs only replacing when it goes bad. I've seen many old Vox AC-30's and Marshall JTM-45's with the original Mullard GZ-34's and they test just fine after nearly 40 years use.
With original AC-30's w/ Top boost going for $3K and up now I think it makes more sense to buy a reissue and convert it. At least if it gets nicked(stolen) you can buy a replacement pretty easy. Can't do that with an old one quite so well. I've gotten alot of touring bands who would rather leave the old JMI-era AC-30 at home. they buy a reissue and send it to me to convert and take that out on tour. I've done 4 of these just for "3rd Eye Blind"..
Don, do you have any experience with the 1993 AC30TBX Limited Edition reissue (the one in purple Tolex)? According what I have read, it's supposed to be as faithful a reproduction of the 1963 AC30TB as any of the reissues. Of course, it has Blues for speakers. I have no point of reference to compare mine to, not ever owning any other AC30s.
It is better, of course, to know useless things than to know nothing. - Seneca
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freakbeat
Thanks Don. I've been thinking about sending you my AC-30 for a while now, and will likely be shipping it down when the guitar fund is sufficient (but I'll pick up some Ei Elite EL-84s in the meantime).
I still want to try a pair of vintage blue or silver Celestions. If it doesn't make much difference, I have a Selmer Zodiac Twin 30 (w/Goodmans) that could really use them!
I still want to try a pair of vintage blue or silver Celestions. If it doesn't make much difference, I have a Selmer Zodiac Twin 30 (w/Goodmans) that could really use them!
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toneman
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kennyhowes
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toneman