Behlens vinyl sealer
Moderator: jingle_jangle
Behlens vinyl sealer
Paul, would you recommend using the Behlen's vinyl sealer that is available at Stew-Mac for use as a sealer coat under a 2k acrylic urethane topcoat?
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jingle_jangle
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Highly. Adhesion and sandability are excellent. Don't sand through, though...just scuff off the dust nits.
Checking their website the other day, I could not find it in quarts anymore...only spray cans. If you use the spray cans, a good deal more care in application is required...it runs easily, and coverage from a can can be spotty. Take it nice and easy.
Checking their website the other day, I could not find it in quarts anymore...only spray cans. If you use the spray cans, a good deal more care in application is required...it runs easily, and coverage from a can can be spotty. Take it nice and easy.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Grizzly also sells Behlen products. They have it in quarts. The president of Grizzly is a guitar builder so they sell a number of guitar parts and supplies. Many of these are priced lower than Stew Mac. Vinyl sealer link: http://www.grizzly.com/products/searchresults.aspx?q=Behlen&start=25&num=25
Link to guitars that the president has built: http://www.grizzly.com/sbguitar/sbguitar.aspx
Link to guitars that the president has built: http://www.grizzly.com/sbguitar/sbguitar.aspx
"The best things in life aren't things."
That is some impressive detail on the guitars that the Grizzly guy built. However, flog me for being conservative in my tastes in Luthiery, but his stuff tends toward the gaudy to an almost tasteless level. That "TwoTone" model has some stunning detail in those inlays. And the scalloping, or "shell carving", in the solid top is time-consuming without using a CNC machine to do the programmed surface milling from a thicker glued-up blank. But, the pattern in the fret inlays of the fingerboard, and the outlining of the bridge, is just plain overdone to the point of being tasteless.
I bet Paul could kick his *ss in a heartbeat for style and aesthetic beauty, no doubts about it
Still, I will buy his quarts of sealer online, no question
I bet Paul could kick his *ss in a heartbeat for style and aesthetic beauty, no doubts about it
Still, I will buy his quarts of sealer online, no question
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and sit in with the band whenever you can, to keep your chops up!
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jingle_jangle
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I get the Grizzly Master Catalog twice a year, because they are one of the best sources for import power tools and machinery. This year, I purchased about $30K in machinery and tools from them for my workshops at the University. Of course, when you're looking at tools, you are also immersed in the owner's luthier hobby.
This is where I begin to sound curmudgeonly again...this is typical (not only in luthiery) in situations in which untrained (uneducated) people allow themselves to run unchecked in any design endeavor.
When I say "untrained" and "uneducated", I'm referring to the pursuit of design and (in this case) art and craft of luthiery.
I'll qualify this comment still further by example: Our beloved Rickenbacker guitars are deeply influenced, both in a design and craftsmanship sense, by a graduate of a German luthiery program, Roger Rossmeisl. First he went to a high-school-level part of the program, which raised his awareness of tradition, and possibility, and made him sensitive to a certain level of craft. Then he did an apprenticeship (not sure how many years, but it is usually at least 5) as a luthier, immersed himself in the daily issues and challenges of creating stringed instruments. At some point he achieved journeyman status, when he was finally charged with creating instruments on his own. This involves building one or more instruments which are then subject to very strict scrutiny by a panel of professionals, to ascertain the soundness of both his art and craft. This proud trade-school legacy lived in the USA as well until the last generation. It now lies in tatters, as service and white-collar jobs supplant skilled craftsman employment as a legitimate way to learn a living.
With few dedicated training programs left, and time precious and expensive, a lot of people opt for being self-taught, and studying only those parts of the craft which interest them (a common problem for autodidacts). Usually a personal--and often weird--idea of "design" replaces the balanced view given in a formalized educational setting.
It seems to me that in this case (and many, many others--see "Pimp My Ride" on TV, for instance), gaudy replaces tasteful as a way to attract the viewer's attention to the craftsmanship also displayed in the same object.
Ken and Elys both have stated it well, but expressed it as a personal taste. Elys, I believe it is quite tasteless. Ken, your personal taste could, from your description, be termed "austere", and you are at the opposite end of the spectrum from Mr. Grizzly (whose name escapes me).
My point is that the creation of objects of high craft should not overlook high art (in this case, product design) and pass into dubious taste. There are a minority of beautiful and timeless design classics in the guitar firmament--among them shining very brightly our own beloved Rickenbackers. Unfortunately, the vast majority of stringed instrument design is too far one way or the other.
At NAMM, one of the snack bars--where the lines were verrrry long--was right across from the NS Designs booth, where it was a pleasure to rest ones' eyes while waiting, not just because one of their demonstrators was a quite attractive young lady. Then we have the recently-discussed Yamaha Silent Guitar. I'm partial to the guitars of Ulrich Teuffel, but realize that they are very, very radical and more sculpture than guitar (although a number of endorsers love their playability and tone possibilities).
BTW, Elys, thank you for your boosterism (to use a George Babbitt word). I just ordered several quarts of "his" (made by Behlen) sealer, too.
This is where I begin to sound curmudgeonly again...this is typical (not only in luthiery) in situations in which untrained (uneducated) people allow themselves to run unchecked in any design endeavor.
When I say "untrained" and "uneducated", I'm referring to the pursuit of design and (in this case) art and craft of luthiery.
I'll qualify this comment still further by example: Our beloved Rickenbacker guitars are deeply influenced, both in a design and craftsmanship sense, by a graduate of a German luthiery program, Roger Rossmeisl. First he went to a high-school-level part of the program, which raised his awareness of tradition, and possibility, and made him sensitive to a certain level of craft. Then he did an apprenticeship (not sure how many years, but it is usually at least 5) as a luthier, immersed himself in the daily issues and challenges of creating stringed instruments. At some point he achieved journeyman status, when he was finally charged with creating instruments on his own. This involves building one or more instruments which are then subject to very strict scrutiny by a panel of professionals, to ascertain the soundness of both his art and craft. This proud trade-school legacy lived in the USA as well until the last generation. It now lies in tatters, as service and white-collar jobs supplant skilled craftsman employment as a legitimate way to learn a living.
With few dedicated training programs left, and time precious and expensive, a lot of people opt for being self-taught, and studying only those parts of the craft which interest them (a common problem for autodidacts). Usually a personal--and often weird--idea of "design" replaces the balanced view given in a formalized educational setting.
It seems to me that in this case (and many, many others--see "Pimp My Ride" on TV, for instance), gaudy replaces tasteful as a way to attract the viewer's attention to the craftsmanship also displayed in the same object.
Ken and Elys both have stated it well, but expressed it as a personal taste. Elys, I believe it is quite tasteless. Ken, your personal taste could, from your description, be termed "austere", and you are at the opposite end of the spectrum from Mr. Grizzly (whose name escapes me).
My point is that the creation of objects of high craft should not overlook high art (in this case, product design) and pass into dubious taste. There are a minority of beautiful and timeless design classics in the guitar firmament--among them shining very brightly our own beloved Rickenbackers. Unfortunately, the vast majority of stringed instrument design is too far one way or the other.
At NAMM, one of the snack bars--where the lines were verrrry long--was right across from the NS Designs booth, where it was a pleasure to rest ones' eyes while waiting, not just because one of their demonstrators was a quite attractive young lady. Then we have the recently-discussed Yamaha Silent Guitar. I'm partial to the guitars of Ulrich Teuffel, but realize that they are very, very radical and more sculpture than guitar (although a number of endorsers love their playability and tone possibilities).
BTW, Elys, thank you for your boosterism (to use a George Babbitt word). I just ordered several quarts of "his" (made by Behlen) sealer, too.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Poppa Wenzel's Standard Cutaway "Roger" model is a great example. JH said of Roger's brief stay at Rickenbacker, before leaving RIC and going to Fender, that Roger's own apprentice Sernie Mosely often said Roger taught him everything he knew about being a luthier. That is quite a high compliment indeed from someone who went on to create Mosrite.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and sit in with the band whenever you can, to keep your chops up!
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jingle_jangle
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Semie recounts his brief time at Rickenbacker in so many different ways; I think it depended upon his mood on the day of the interview. I recently read an interview with him in which he said that he contributed to the Rick neck design and a couple of other features, too. He does mention in this interview that he worked under Roger and was fired for building his own guitar there and that they thought he was stealing ideas.
This is a problem with a lot of green craftspeople, self-taught like Semie, and young and wet behind the ears. They are soo ready to tilt at windmills and conquer the world that they forget it's their day jobs that keep them in gas, chili, and cigarettes, and that their employers have a business to run...
The similarity in the two tailpieces is not serendipity, BTW. Literality seems to be a Teutonic trait and often piggybacks onto genius.
This is a problem with a lot of green craftspeople, self-taught like Semie, and young and wet behind the ears. They are soo ready to tilt at windmills and conquer the world that they forget it's their day jobs that keep them in gas, chili, and cigarettes, and that their employers have a business to run...
The similarity in the two tailpieces is not serendipity, BTW. Literality seems to be a Teutonic trait and often piggybacks onto genius.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Sounds like you've a surfeit of young and impatient Quixotics each year in your own classes...
So, do I still stand a chance of asking you where online I can buy checkered binding stock? Someone must sell the stuff, else I will have to laminate hundreds of small squares of alternating white and black plastic together with acetone in order to get a long-enough bar to saw off my own strips?? Or do I risk getting written off as just another drippy-eared tilter 
So, do I still stand a chance of asking you where online I can buy checkered binding stock? Someone must sell the stuff, else I will have to laminate hundreds of small squares of alternating white and black plastic together with acetone in order to get a long-enough bar to saw off my own strips??
Or do I risk getting written off as just another drippy-eared tilter Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and sit in with the band whenever you can, to keep your chops up!
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jingle_jangle
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Actually, you'd have to start with a one-meter cube made of alternating one-meter-square panels of 1.5 mm black and white celluloid. Then you water-jet-cut it into 1.5 mm panels, at a right angle to the pattern, which gives you striped panels 1.5 mm thick. then you cut these on a saw to 5mm width strips.
Sound like a lot of work? It is. That's why a cut-up 1 meter cube sells for about $250K.
But my '58 Hemosch has some pretty nice binding, and it's pre-water-jet, too...
The black/white part of it is extended rectangles, .5mm x 3.0, three layers alternating and glued up before bending. Then there's inner binding in black, and outer binding in alternate b/w layers, too.
Looking at postwar German archtops, this is actually a less ornate scheme than most.
Sound like a lot of work? It is. That's why a cut-up 1 meter cube sells for about $250K.
But my '58 Hemosch has some pretty nice binding, and it's pre-water-jet, too...
The black/white part of it is extended rectangles, .5mm x 3.0, three layers alternating and glued up before bending. Then there's inner binding in black, and outer binding in alternate b/w layers, too.
Looking at postwar German archtops, this is actually a less ornate scheme than most.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
$250K? The raw celluloid sheets themselves cannot cost anywhere near that much, so it sounds like it is mostly labor costing. I am already thinking about alternatives to water-jet (since I do not have access to one except for a short-focus circuit board cutter with a max working material thickness of maybe 15cm). This could be a great cottage-industry at those prices (can you hear me getting ready to go tilting already?) Maybe a low-speed large fine blade with flow-water cooling into the cutting slot in the celluloid, to prevent temperature rise during cutting.....
And to imagine, I started out thinking of only humbly rebinding my own April 71 4001 that I bought recently, while doing a MG refinish, and where to buy the strips of binding commercially.
Say, that is some unusually beautiful binding on your Hernosch there, Paul Did they make up their own binding back then?
Maybe a low-speed large fine blade with flow-water cooling into the cutting slot in the celluloid, to prevent temperature rise during cutting..... And to imagine, I started out thinking of only humbly rebinding my own April 71 4001 that I bought recently, while doing a MG refinish, and where to buy the strips of binding commercially.
Say, that is some unusually beautiful binding on your Hernosch there, Paul
Did they make up their own binding back then?Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and sit in with the band whenever you can, to keep your chops up!
Elys, I think I have a link on where to buy the checkered binding on my home computer. I will check tonight for you.
Paul, thanks for your take on this. I will assume that guitar building is a hobby for Mr. Grizzly as for me. I can appreciate his artistry but I don't think it adds to the sound quality.
Paul, thanks for your take on this. I will assume that guitar building is a hobby for Mr. Grizzly as for me. I can appreciate his artistry but I don't think it adds to the sound quality.
"The best things in life aren't things."
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jingle_jangle
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Ken, we should be clear on the difference between art and craft. His craft is high, his art is low...see my previous definition of "kitsch".
The checkered binding comes from Germany; must be bought in sizable quantities.
The checkered binding comes from Germany; must be bought in sizable quantities.
“I say in speeches that a plausible mission of artists is to make people appreciate being alive at least a little bit. I am then asked if I know of any artists who pulled that off. I reply, 'The Beatles did.”
― Kurt Vonnegut
― Kurt Vonnegut
Well, the term kitschen has changed its meaning quite widely since the days 150 years ago of the Munich bourgeoisie. It is not quite scraping mud off the streets anymore. Kitsch has to be one of the hardest words to define, actually.
I like Hermann Broch's definition the best: the evil within the value-system of art, that depends upon plundering the heart of creative art for its superficial features without comprehending the balance of its soul and spirit. The nouveau riche in technique and glitz whose artistic eye has never opened.
Of course, it is not worth noting the coincidence that we are talking kitsch in the same breath as German binding...
OK, Paul, I am game to buy a sizeable quantity (as long as it does not cost $250,000 of course). It won't go bad over time. The bulk of what remains can join the 37 pounds of various size fret wire in the cabinet here. But by golly, I could refret every guitar here once a month if I ever was so insane as to want to Where do I write in Germany to order the binding?
I like Hermann Broch's definition the best: the evil within the value-system of art, that depends upon plundering the heart of creative art for its superficial features without comprehending the balance of its soul and spirit. The nouveau riche in technique and glitz whose artistic eye has never opened.
Of course, it is not worth noting the coincidence that we are talking kitsch in the same breath as German binding...
OK, Paul, I am game to buy a sizeable quantity (as long as it does not cost $250,000 of course). It won't go bad over time. The bulk of what remains can join the 37 pounds of various size fret wire in the cabinet here. But by golly, I could refret every guitar here once a month if I ever was so insane as to want to
Where do I write in Germany to order the binding? Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and sit in with the band whenever you can, to keep your chops up!
Elys I can't seem to find the link for the binding. They sold it by the strip along with other hard to find parts such as the early style jack plate as on Lennon's guitar. The link was posted on the forum here so maybe someone still has it. There is a forum member the has a few strips I will email him and see if he still has them and is willing to part with them. Sorry.
"The best things in life aren't things."