On Second Thought...

karl_teten · Post by **karl_teten** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:34 am

The Byrds 'The World Turns All Around Her' is a perfect example of poor intonation.

Hall mentioned that there were also roundwound factory strings available in the mid 60's. Possible McGuinn tried them on TWTAAH without checking intonation from the flats. ???

IMO, the original 6 saddle bridge works OK for flatwounds but not well for roundwounds.

Back in the 80's I used to make custom 12 sets with Ernie Ball roundwound singles. I would have to find the median for each string (root and octave) on each saddle to intonate. I would work the saddles until I met a compromise then after tuning to 440 I would have to retune slightly by ear playing various chords.

karl_teten · Post by **karl_teten** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:36 am

My observations above were done on a stock 1966 360-12.

jimk · Post by **jimk** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:05 pm

An acoustic guitar is less of a machine than an electric guitar. Discuss.

The assumption here is quite correct, IMHO. And furthermore, one must take into account the amp as an extension of the electric guitar, as though it were an instrument, too. In other words, the guitarist not only plays his or her guitar, but the amp, as well.

JimK

P.S. This discussion is interesting. Anybody else have something to add?
jk

valenti · Post by **valenti** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:23 pm

Regarding the original question (although the machine digression is more entertaining), my 360-12 also had TERRIBLE intonation with the original bridge. I too had Arnquist do his "thing" and the difference is like night and day. (Sorry, no photos at the moment).

Having played with a lot of guitarists and musicians (both are not always the same), some people don't notice when their guitar is out of tune, period. For better or worse, my ear is superior to my fingers, so I could hear the intonation problem. Believe me, I was not happy having to spend additional $$ upgrading the bridge just to have the guitar intonate correctly. But it was worth every dollar.

I agree about acoustic guitars. How many have adjustable saddles (6 OR 12)? Not many that I've ever seen. My Ovation 12 intonates "almost" perfectly, certainly well enough up to the 12th fret, which is as far as I go with it. I play my Rics (both 660-12 and the 360-12) up and down the neck all the time, and for me, I needed to have it be in tune with itself and the rest of the band.

brammy · Post by **brammy** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 1:35 pm

Interesting that Ric includes the 12-saddle bridge on it's 660/12 but a regular 6-saddle on it's 620/12. The only reason that I can think of is that the 660/12 has a wider neck and thus is more accepting of a 12-saddle bridge.

Personally, from all the talk here I doubt that I'd be able to hear the difference .... but I'd still like to trade my 620/12 for a 660/12 simply for the neck width. But that's another discussion.

kcole4001 · Post by **kcole4001** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:17 am

In agreement with Jim K's remarks about playing the amp as well as the guitar, it's an art of it's own, which eludes some guys completely.

That said, a lot (most?) players will still sound like themselves no matter what gear they're playing on, even if it's ****.
A good player can make bad gear sound good, but the opposite certainly is not true!

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:01 am

Are you sure, Kevin?

I tried the opposite, and come up with the following statement:

"A bad player can make good gear sound bad."

However, a bad player cannot make good gear sound good.

Nor can he make bad gear sound good.

And, on a bad night, even a good player can make good gear sound bad.

Or make bad gear sound bad, too.

I think that covers all the bases.

Too much caffeine.

kcole4001 · Post by **kcole4001** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:31 am

Or: a bad sound guy can make a good band sound bad,
a good sound guy can make a bad band sound...like they have a good sound guy...

Not enough caffeine!

teb · Post by **teb** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:54 am

Case in point...One of the guys in our band once got a one-night, solo gig opening for Leo Kotke at the University of Illinois Auditorium. He normally played a Martin D-28, but as a backup he had an ancient Martin D-series guitar that he'd found someplace. It was so yellow on top that it looked like orange shellac and had so many patched top cracks that it was the deadest Martin I've ever heard. We called it "The Sled". It looked pretty good, but sounded like ****. When Kotke got to town, somehow the airline had lost his guitar. We offered him a choice of a bunch or Martins - D-28's a D-35, a D-21, a D-18 (all of which were excellent) and anything else we could find. Naturally, he chose The Sled. We tried to talk him out of it, but no luck.

Well, he played the gig that night on The Sled and it sounded incredible! Unfortunately, when he gave it back and any of us tried to play it, the magic had already worn off and it had reverted to sounding like ****. We probably should have just had him sign it and hung it on the wall.

jimk · Post by **jimk** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:14 pm

Todd, the same story was told of Vassar Clenents' fiddle. After Vassar had passed away, some of his friends got out his old fiddle, the one that was his favorite. Nobody could get it to sound right. And the sound was pure garbage. Only Vassar had the touch.

This has been a very interesting thread. Thanks to all who participated.

JimK

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:36 pm

I still can't figure out what "the University of Illinois Auditorium" is - I went to concerts/performances at Krannert Center, the Assembly Hall, and some other small hall ("Godspell" was presented in the round), but no Auditorium IIRC ...

teb · Post by **teb** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:54 pm

Gary, The Auditorium is that big building at the south end of the quad (opposite the Student Union on the north end). It has a really big silver dome on top and big concrete steps out front, a main level, a big balcony and holds probably 1,500-2,000 people if you fill it up. I think they renamed it a while back after some rich guy who donated a bunch of money to the U (Foellinger maybe?). It was a cool place to play.

We also played twice in the Krannert Center for the Performing Arts Great Hall. What a room! It's all wood with big sound baffles and is tuned to essentially be a 2,000 seat recording studio. You can snap your fingers on stage and hear it clearly in the back of the room. We were the first non-classical group (hippie folk-rockers) that they ever turned loose in there to play a concert. I had my old Ampeg B-15's volume set at about 1/3 with no mic and it was plenty, even during loud passages. Someplace I still have a couple posters made to advertise the concerts. Tickets back then (1972 and 1974 or 75) cost $2.50-$3.00. No wonder we never made any money playing gigs.

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:50 pm

OK, now I got it. IIRC, by the time I was there early to mid 1980s) it had been renamed after a renovation (the name I don't remember). I was in there at least once because I remember that they had a montage to Roger Ebert (an alumnus, natch) on one of the walls in the front foyer.