Binding separation

lars · Post by **lars** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:28 am

Paul, as you may know I've got a 381/12V69 MG. It's from 1992.
The white outer binding has separated from the CB some places (both front and back, lower bout). What kind of glue do you use for the binding? As the binding now is too long (or wide), would you recommend to press it into shape and glue it to the CB, or would you loosen it to the joint, and cut off a millimeter before glueing it?

lars · Post by **lars** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:33 am

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:34 am

Just push it in and glue it into place. As for glue, I use acetone with a few bits of celluloid dissolved in it to make it white and give it some body. You could use plain acetone and tape it into place firmly overnight.

Super glue is tricky, can get messy and precludes easy disassembly in case of error, but could be used, too.

johnallg · Post by **johnallg** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:36 am

Good luck on a clean job. Beautiful wood, Lars.

8 more, Paul!!

lars · Post by **lars** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 1:06 pm

Does the use of aceton mean that the binding material is celluloid, Paul?

Thanks John, the birds eyes actually look like drops of water!

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 2:04 pm

oops.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Mon Feb 12, 2007 3:32 pm

It's celluloid.

dale_fortune · Post by **dale_fortune** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 2:46 pm

The White is Vinyl and the B/W checkered is Celluloid, unless it's pre 1972

elysrand · Post by **elysrand** » Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:58 pm

OK, four annoying questions, apologies in advance

What is the white binding if it is pre-1972?
Is it celluloid for both?

Was there a materials change at any point for 4001 basses, between November 1960 and late 1973?

When and what did it change from and to?

lars · Post by **lars** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 7:37 am

Will the acetone work on vinyl? Or does celluloid stick to any material once the acetone is applied? I believe celluloid softened with acetone sticks to wood (like accordeon finishes) or pick guards on older Martin acoustics.
Celluloid shrinks with time. Vinyl doesn't. This explains the separation maybe?

dale_fortune · Post by **dale_fortune** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:00 am

In 1972 we had made a transition to Vinyl Binding for necks and guitars..don't know the exact date.The main reason was shrinkage of the celluloid..Gibson was already using it on their Les Pauls.
Acetone will melt/bond Vinyl material to most anything.Great care must be taken when using Acetone because it will also melt the finish on your instrument instantly leaving a slug trail if it flows across the finish. Even tapping off the area is difficult since the acetone will flow under the tape or dissolve the adhesive to the guitar. So a word of caution is to use a very small amount of acetone to do this repair and if any get on the finish don't wipe it off, let it dry and polish it out with methods and materials used to remove scratches.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 am

Lars, the separation cannot be explained by shrinkage. Both celluloid and vinyl will shrink, as will ABS, which was used on BT guitars and basses.

The celluloid wrapped around the perimeter of this 381 is stabilized by the wood around which it is wrapped, but if it did shrink excessively, the result would be cracks in the celluloid, not a gap between the celluloid and the vinyl.

The gap has to do with the handbuilt nature of the guitars, the fact that the binding is glued on by hand, and probably a "dry area" in the glue joint.

Incidentally, like most guitar materials, shrinkage of these plastics is dependent on a number of environmental factors, not to mention the composition of the materials. Anyone who wishes to see proof of this should look at Brooklyn-era Gretsch guitars--their celluloid binding is often in very bad shape, usually from the effects of atmospheric ozone.

rick12dr · Post by **rick12dr** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:39 am

Brian Carman told me back in around '89 that the binding they were using[still are?] was[is] an extruded ABS material Rick had specially done for them in like 10,000 ft rolls.

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:24 pm

ABS has been in use for decades on both black and white binding. The checked binding will soon be ABS as well.

elysrand · Post by **elysrand** » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:36 pm

John, all my near-term restoration will be exclusively 4001 product made between January 1968 and June 1972. Were both the checkered inner body binding AND the outside white body binding entirely celluloid between those dates, or were you already using some vinyl during that time for the outside white body binding or neck binding?

Thanks in advance, John, your verification "from the authentic source" will help greatly in this labor of love for the venerable 4001!