Toaster pickups

beatlefreak · Post by **beatlefreak** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:39 pm

It would be nice to know. I just got thinking about it, since we've seen the vintage reissue toasters at 11-12k (early ones), 7-8k (later ones), and 3.5-4.5k (some C series).

soundmasterg · Post by **soundmasterg** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:08 am

I would say about 12k on that toaster bobbin is about the max that can be on there with 44 gauge wire. I just had my friend Dave Stephens (www.sdpickups.com) wind a couple toaster bobbins for me with 44 and the bobbins are filled to the absolute max and they're around 12.3k and 12.7k with scatterwind. This is with single build wire too.....heavy build would be a lower DC resistance. Max with 43 gauge plain enamel is around 9.5k. You might be able to get more if you really have the tension tight, but you run the risk of stretching the wire and/or shorting the coil. These coils have the wire almost falling out of the bobbins and I'll probably have to back them off a tad to have them work ok.

I think the toasters have always had alnico magnets, and the modern ones at least are alnico 5. Since records weren't kept as well in the older days with most manufacturers they could have easily used different magnet compositions, but I would guess that the toasters have always been alnico at least.

rickcrazy · Post by **rickcrazy** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:57 am

Hmm... I hope nobody minds my asking, but: cramming a (Rick) pickup bobbin full of #44 wire to 12.0+ k? What on Earth for?

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:52 pm

I just checked the resistance of the reissue toasters on my April 1991 660/12 JG: 12.56 kW[/size] for the neck pickup and 11.79 kW[/size] for the bridge pickup. (And yes, Sergio, I'm practicing for the measurements you're waiting for!

)

johnhall · Post by **johnhall** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:39 am

With the computerized winders we use, we can put about 15K on one of those bobbins. Since the scatterwound is actually a very carefully controlled pattern that builds evenly, the precision of the winder, including very accurate tension control, allows it to put down a very tight wind.

But as Sergio says, why? What would be the point?

ajish4 · Post by **ajish4** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:24 am

I love the toasters. All my RIC's with the exception of my 81 ATG have 'em. Such a sweet sounding pickup.

My turn for a few stupid questions if I may, what exactly is scatterwound? I've usually heard that term associated with a hand wound pickup.

Is there a difference in sound between the non-scatterwound vs scatterwound?

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:03 am

There are two basic ways to wind the coils, very evenly with geometric precision or randomly. A lot of pickup winders will wind evenly where the windings are stacked very nicely with one winding right up against the previous one. Scatter winding is more random - like how they would look if wound by hand. The windings may cross the bobbin diagonally from top to bottom and then the next pass is more parallel to the bobbin plates. This randomness affects the inductive properties of the pickup. Scatter wound pickups are said to produce a warmer, fuller sound than evenly wound pickups.

squirebass · Post by **squirebass** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:47 am

Ted,
Does it then follow that scatterwounds would have less treble than machine-wound toasters?

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 12:11 pm

I have never compared the two styles side by side. My previous remarks are based on what players and pickup builders have said not from any first hand experience.

I suppose that could be true though.

soundmasterg · Post by **soundmasterg** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:15 pm

I wouldn't say that scatterwinding would produce a pickup with less treble than a machine wound pickup....I'd say its more along the lines of a scatterwound pickup will have sweeter sounding highs than a machine-wound pickup. And while the inductance does change when using a scatterwind, I would say the thing that affects the sound the most with a scatterwind is the change in capacitance and AC resistance.

Mr. Hall, it doesn't surprise me that your precision winders can get more on the toaster/high gain coil, but I am surprised that you can get as much as 15k with 44. My friend Dave is using a computerized winder but his scatter isn't as fast as it could be, and he doesn't wind with a real tight tension either usually. One of the toasters I had him rewind was only 6.1k, was from around 1999, and had a real loose tension. I am curious which tensioner RIC uses with their coil winders if you care to share? There have been several types and brands mentioned on the Ampage pickup forum that guys are trying out, but it would be good to know if there are other, better ones out there that the big manufacturers use.

I don't necessarily want the 12k that are on the pickups I had Dave do right now....I just told him to wind them hot and I'll back them down until I like the sound. The 7.4k toasters were too weak for me at the bridge, so I figured I'd experiment with different wire types and gauges to see how it affects the sound.

ajish4 · Post by **ajish4** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:38 pm

Thanks Ted,

Much appreciated.

Excellent description.

wolfgang · Post by **wolfgang** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:12 am

hello,
scatterwound pickups have the same inductance (if they have the same number of turns) but lesser capacitance, because the windings are not so close together. As a result they have more treble.
But, if you turn your volume knob up completely, the guitar cord (with its own, much higher capacitance) will dominate (pickup capacity is about 60 to 150 µµf, guitar cord capacitance is about 400 to 1200 µµF)

rickfan60 · Post by **rickfan60** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:47 am

Vielen Dank Wolfgang. I have to admit that the physics of guitar pickups still escapes me. So it is the capacitance that changes and not the inductance. Is inductance merely a function of the length and gauge of the coil wire?

wolfgang · Post by **wolfgang** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:35 am

Ted,
no, this is the resistance, measured in kOhms.
The inductance is measured in Henries and goes with the square of the number of turns.
The output voltage of an pickup increases with the number of turns and with the magnet strength and with string gauge and string-to- pickup distance.

soundmasterg · Post by **soundmasterg** » Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:37 pm

Well if you think about it, with a scatterwind you won't get the same number of turns as with a machinewind even if you wind to the same turns count because due to the scatter, each turn builds differently on the coil and so each turn will be a different length. You see the same thing if you use a wire with a different insulation thickness or vary the tension. So while you have air gaps between the wire which changes the capacitance with a scatterwind, the different turns count changes the inductance of the coil. So a scatterwind indirectly changes the inductance and more directly changes the capacitance. You can say that the guitar cord capacitance will dominate the pickup capacitance, but there is an audible change going from a machinewind to a scatterwind, so there has to be something associated with that change in capacitance that is changing the sound of the pickup.

Ted, inductance can be affected by many things when making a pickup. The way the magnetic field interacts with the coil makes a big difference, so the actual design and arrangement of all the components in a pickup make a big difference. The amount and type of metal in the coil change the eddy currents, which affect the inductance. This would include the type of magnets (Alnico vs ceramic, etc), and the formulation of them. (Alnico 5 as compared to Alnico 3 or Alnico 2 for example). The tension used and wire insulation thickness and wire gauge affects how much wire you get on the bobbin, which affects inductance, capacitance, AC resistance, DC resistance, impedance. Its really an art in a lot of ways.