Memories That Never Were

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Wed May 23, 2007 1:51 pm

Carol Kay is full of krap, that is all James Jamerson, it is all fingerstyle for one thing and sounds nothing like her style, she was a Beach Boy type bass player who played with a pick. James Jamerson started on upright and you can hear that style in almost all the Motown stuff, very funky and organic, you need to be able to pluck with one finger like he did to really get that style right, you need to be able to rake across the strings, it is extremely difficult. He was one of the most amazing bass players who ever lived and for her to claim that she played all or even some of that stuff is simply ludicrous. And I also don't believe that stuff about poking holes in speakers, cuts rips, etc. most of the time you can't hear the difference and if you can it is not the distorted type of sound you hear on Link's or Davie's records, that is power tube distortion pure and simple, a little amp turned to ten. This is from a guy who collected speakers from when he was ten years old and did all sorts of things to them including unintentionally making holes and rips etc. in them, it doesn't change the sound all that much, you can get a flatulence type of sound with a big rip from the two adjacent pieces of cone rubbing together out of synch but that is nothing like amp distortion. There are many urban legends floating around like that.

kenposurf · Post by **kenposurf** » Wed May 23, 2007 2:33 pm

The sound of Links early sides were a result of an overdriven amp with a "modified" speaker, tremolo effect and recorded with a mono tube reel to reel portable recorder. Jamerson was a monster..epic. I don't find anything wrong with any of the bass lines on The Beach Boys classic tracks or the method in which they were played..even if Brian sounded like Kay?

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Wed May 23, 2007 2:45 pm

It is not just Carol, many musicians say they played certain dates out here, with certain songs, that were also recorded in Detroit. In the books I have read, it is that they did multiple takes in multiple locations, thus the confusion. It is entirely possible they didn't use an LA takes, but that didn't stop them from happening.

Ever played with a felt pick? I have no proof, but I have played with a felt pick and it sure doesn't sound like a plastic pick.

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Wed May 23, 2007 6:12 pm

Brian only played bass on the first couple of albums, he wrote great bass lines buy couldn't play them, according to him he was only a "rudimentary player". I wasn't trying to slam the Beach Boys, whom I love, just contrast the bass styles as she is supposed to have played on a lot of their stuff.
It is very easy to differentiate Jamerson from other bass players, I can spot him a mile away, nobody played or plays like him except for other upright-turned electric players and it's usually the other way around today and he was by far the best. I have played with a felt pick (many moons ago), it is not the sound so much as the upright syncopated style he had. Personally I think he was much better than Jaco. Many players saying they did alternate sessions, maybe so, but we ain't hearing them, where are they? Actually many players would love to take the credit for his stuff is more like it, he's gone and can't defend himself, but if you look around on the internet you will find many of the remaining Motown players are outraged at what she (and others is trying to do to Jamerson, the're like a bunch of piranhas.

kenposurf · Post by **kenposurf** » Wed May 23, 2007 7:14 pm

Jamerson had it all..the best...I'm with ya Bob

charlyg · Post by **charlyg** » Wed May 23, 2007 7:18 pm

I don't want to argue much about it, but I have to say, she has been saying it all along, not just after he died. She has logs of studio dates. I have seen those, they look legit.

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Wed May 23, 2007 7:46 pm

The biography of Gene Clark, Mr. Tambourine Man, is full of 'alternate histories/memories' of events surrounding Gene.

lyle_from_minneapolis · Thu May 24, 2007 5:05 pm

Learning more about that slashed speaker thing:

"...who better than the man himself to close the lid on idle speculation?"

http://www.davedavies.com/articles/tgm_0199-01.htm

Sorry, Roy, you've mentioned you're not much of a Kinks fan so this is probably boring you. But they did write one for The Rockin' Vickers...did you like them?

royclough · Post by **royclough** » Thu May 24, 2007 9:44 pm

No not boring at all Mark, I kinda liked The Kinks but never rushed out to buy their stuff.

The debate on whether Page played the riff on "You Really Got Me" has gone on for years, similar in a way to the the song "The Crying Game" big hit here for Dave Berry and a great haunting guitar lead, which I believe was actually played by Big Jim Sullivan though Page may well have been on the session.

Rockin' Vickers were actually called The Rocking Vicars but even in the 60's political sensitivity ensued so the name was changed on the records they issued about 4 singles I think.

One of their members at one time was Lemmy of Motorhead.

Not sure Davies wrote Dandy for them, they recorded it certainly as did Clinton Ford here in UK. Herman's Hermits released it as a single only in US.

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri May 25, 2007 2:21 am

Thanks Mark. That is one of three explanations but surely we have to go with the memory of the person who created this sound, Don't we?

Here is the Kinks' bass player Pete Quaife's recollection to my question about the guitar sound on "You Really Got Me."

"In those days there was no such thing as fuzz boxes. What we did was to get a small, green amp which had an out put of about 2-3 watts and smash up the loudspeaker with a screwdriver. Then we connected the leads going to the speaker to an extension lead fitted to a jack. This we plugged into a Vox AC30. Then we turned it all on and cranked it all up as high as it would go. This was the beginning of the British entry into nuclear explosions! The result can be heard on You Really Got Me. (Later on we found it to be cheaper to buy a fuzz box) Regards, The Crutch" - August 17, 2000.

So there you have it, a razor blade, knitting needles and a screwdriver!

lyle_from_minneapolis · Fri May 25, 2007 9:18 am

True, Roy, "Dandy" was just a track on the Face to Face album that was covered by many. I remember hearing the Herman's Hermits version on local radio in Minneapolis in the 60's.

jimk · Post by **jimk** » Fri May 25, 2007 3:02 pm

That's interesting, Mark. I remember hearing the Kinks' recording of "Dandy" and thinking it hilarious, and don't remember the covers at all.

JimK

dedicated_follower · Post by **dedicated_follower** » Sun May 27, 2007 11:43 am

Peter says
Jim: If you forgive me borrowing on your Kinks' theme, there is another aspect of You Really Got Me that has intrigued me for years.
Seems that the question has been well and truly answered since I last posted.
Ray tells the story of the amps at his concerts, especially the Storyteller tour. I saw him a week and a half ago in his current tour and he briefly mentioned it again

rictified · Post by **rictified** » Sun May 27, 2007 1:57 pm

I still think the speaker thing is a well worn self perpetuating legend, but obviously no one else does. If you plug any guitar with good high output pickups into any tube amp you will get that distorted sound if you crank it to ten, the lower the wattage and cheaper the amp the better. The old 50's blues records are full of very distorted guitars, some of the best sounding guitar stuff you'll ever hear, Supro 5 watt amps cranked etc.
Dandy by Herman's Hermits was a big hit here in MA.
Carol Kaye is still full of krap.

lyle_from_minneapolis · Sun May 27, 2007 3:05 pm

I hear you, Bob, and their descriptions of the recording process actually bear out what you say. But when he was at home, with the speakers finely cut in a star pattern, I think Dave heard a pretty good "flatulence" buzz. But in the studio, Shel Talmy was wise enough to crank the little green amp, and then run it through the Vox. They all think it was the shredding, but...