450v63 Intonation. Methods? Mod it? Sell it?

zekmoe · Post by **zekmoe** » Sun Sep 28, 2003 7:45 am

Hello,
I have a 450v63 Burgundy from that special run a few years ago. While I like
the guitar, and it plays great (sort of... see below), I can't for the life
of me get it properly intonated. I even bought and strung it with some
Pyramids in a hope they would perform some miracle. The issue is this. There
is this bent bar bridge thing, that sits in side a bridge holder thing.
(sorry for all the tech terms). There is no adjustments like most modern
guitars. Although the nut looks cut correctly, and single note playing is
smooth and buzz free, and the action is acceptably low, the chords are way
out. Checking on my trusty tuner, they register like 10 cents off, sharp.
Normally I'd move the saddle back to get it in tune, but there is no
adjustment for this. I tried to simply push the bridge back a bit, thinking
it was like an archtop and it had some manual setup, but as I begin to tune
it to pitch, it just moves back to its position. Nothing keeps it in place,
and I'm not even sure that the slight move I managed would be enough for it
to intonate.
Is there a method for intonating these?
Should I have someone mod it with a proper, adjustable bridge of some type?
Should I sell it and move on?
I like it as a wall hanger, but would actually like to use it as a player.
But can't because its that far out. Any suggestions? I'm not aware of any
guitar guys in my area that would know about these, or know what to do.
Thanks
Bob
www.curbdog.org

sneakers · Post by **sneakers** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 12:41 am

Bob,

Short of designing or buying a new bridge, I'd try a heavier gauge string. That little lift in string guage centerline may give you the same effect as moving the bridge back. Tweaking the neck, adding more bow may also help you.

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 2:43 am

Bob: There are several ways to go with this instrument and none of them include putting it up for sale.

To begin, you have not let us know which strings are sharp on your instrument at the 12th fret after you have tuned it to pitch. Is the neck straight? Assuming that it is a single string or two that it out, it is possible to change the gauge of the string to bring it into proper intonation. Simply going to a higher tension or gauge string set such as the Pyrams, without a proper truss rod adjustment, is working against you. The greater the tension the more the neck is pulled toward you and hence the shorted distance between the nut and the bridge. Therefore, the strings become sharper.

I would take my instrument to a luthier who is familiar with Rickenbackers for a proper setup. If you do a search from the Utilities at the left side of this page for "Setup" you will see a number of suggestions which you will find helpful.

There is nothing to stop you from removing the bridge and putting an adjustable Rickenbacker bridge on top of the existing bridgeplate. This works fine and will solve your problem with intonation in a straightforward manner. If you buy a bridge cover it will finish off the instrument. Some routing out of the pickguard may be necessary to allow for adjustments to the bridge, however, so you need to explore this possibility carefully and methodically.

I would recommend you take the least drastic intervention first and attempt to identify the specific strings that are out. The bottom line is that this is a very nice playing instrument and your problem can be rectified.

sneakers · Post by **sneakers** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 3:16 am

I'd love to get my hands on this piece to really see what's going on. I think Peter is right, don't consider selling the instrument as a potential fix.

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 7:46 am

Bob, I'll check both of my 450v63s later tonight - I don't recall having a major intonation problem like you describe. I'll also check the intonation on my 1981 460 which has the same bridge setup - I recently restrung it with some flatwounds (can't remember what brand offhand) and I don't think I had a problem with the intonation on it, either (I always check the intonation, action, and relief when I restring a guitar). I'll post an update once I check things out.

One thing to note is that the bridge does have some upscale/downscale adjustability, but if I remember correctly, it may require loosening the pickguard screws and releasing the tension on the strings to move it - the base of the bridge doesn't slide freely on the body surface, and the pickguard may interfere with the movement, too.

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 8:16 am

One thing to note is that the bridge does have some upscale/downscale adjustability - Dr. Who

Excellent point Gary. This adjustment may be sufficient, depending on the extent of Zekmoe's intonation problem.

philco · Post by **philco** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:06 pm

Post a close up photo of the bridge area, Bob, and somebody might be able to advise.

A photo is worth a thousand words, you know.

doctorwho · Post by **doctorwho** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 11:33 pm

Well, I managed to check the 460 and one of 450v63s, and here is what I found.

My Jetglo 450v63 does have some intonation issues. It is strung with its original RIC strings (10-13-17-26-34-42), and here are the differences (in cents) between the open and 12th fret notes (Seiko ST-727 Chromatic Tuner):

1st string: 0 to +1
2nd string: -3 to -2
3rd string: +4 to +6
4th string: 0 to +1
5th string: +12 to +14
6th string: +8 to +10

So, the 5th and 6th strings are quite too sharp and the 3rd string is close to being too sharp.

I restrung my 1981 460 BG recently with D'Aquisto Signature Series Flat Wound Electric Jazz stainless steel strings, 120 Light (12-16-22-32-42-52). It has no intonation problems (all strings ± 3 cents or less). Here is a picture of the bridge of the 460:

Note that it isn't parallel to the edge of the pickguard, the low-string end being slightly farther back.

I'll try to dig out my other 450v63 (a Burgundy) to check its intonation - it has its original strings, but hasn't seen as much playing time as the Jetglo. Also, although it'll take longer to accomplish, I will restring the 450v63 JG with an identical set of D'Aquistos and see how that turns out.

zekmoe · Post by **zekmoe** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 3:17 am

Peter,
there is no luthier in my area that I am aware of (Albany NY) that is familiar with these. I may not know everyone though. The neck is straight, or at best has a very minor bow. Nearly nothing. The strings are like 10c sharp, especially the G string. You can easily hear it sharp without a tuner. I had 11 gauge D'Addaios prior to the Pyramids. The Pyramids are 10 gauge but have more string tension. But it hasn't seemed to affect the neck. I think the intonation was bad, but not as bad with the D'Addario 11's. I'd prefer to stick with these new strings as I am growing to like them.
I can raise the brigde and will later to see if it has any effect. I may have lowered it inadvertantly when changing strings, as I was deciding whether to cut off the bottom of the bridge hight adjustment screws that so scrape my hand. So I might have been looking at them and brought them down. But up too much and the action would suffer. I'll try later.
As for the pic (from Gary C) mine is pinned up against the picguard, forward. I tried to move it back but then brought up to tension it just slid forward. Maybe I should wedge something small in there to act as a spacer between the pickguard?
I really want to make this guitar a player. It has the intonation issue which is primary, the screws and what I feel is an electronic issue. Seems like alot for a guitar I want to keep? But in reality, with all its flaws, I like it, and feel it has the soul to become great.

philco · Post by **philco** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:30 pm

My father's Gretsch solid body had an issue with a floppy bridge that moved around. I removed the bridge plate and found that the bridge support screws had backed out a bit and would let the bridge move back and forth. After snugging them down, I ran a couple of nuts down on top of them in order to prevent the bolts from backing out again in the future. The bridge sits on a couple of knurled thumb nuts the size of small fender washers, so twirling them around tends to make the bolts turn also if they are not really tight against the bridge support plate. The bolts have not loosened after my fix.

The other part of his problem were worn out tuning keys, so I got him a set of Sperzel locking tuners for his birthday. After looking at those things, it sort of blew his mind as to how they would work. He didn't believe the part about not having to wind string around the tuner post any more, so being an old retired farmer, he solved the problem with his old standby: baling wire. Actually, it was short bits of old wire shirt hangers that he bent into C-shaped spring tensioners that provided enough tension between key and post to keep the keys from backing off. It looks tacky, but it works.

Bob, I'd take that pickguard off and see what's going on underneath it. It sounds like you have something loose if the bridge moves around. If nothing is loose, remember that a couple of pieces of wire can sometimes work wonders.

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:49 pm

Bob: I would go with the simplest change possible, that is raise the bridge to increase the distance between it and the nut. My next move would be to use the RIC (10-42) compressed wound strings. I suspect that these two changes in combination move your intonation in the desired direction.

zekmoe · Post by **zekmoe** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 12:56 pm

Peter,
where would I get the Ric strings? Is there a place online I could order them from that you know of? I'd be willing to try them and see. Tonite if I have time I'll try to just raise the bridge with the existing strings.

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 1:32 pm

Zekmoe: Try Mike or Chris