Irate customer anyone?

studiotwosession · Post by **studiotwosession** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:58 am

Anyone here ever work in retail? If so, ever have some guy come in and raise h---?

I will heed by the forum's general belief about the virtues of not mentioning names. But recently I was sold a "vintage" 4001 by a dealer in my area who claims to be an expert. Turns out another expert which I had it sent directly to to check it out informed me that nearly all of the parts on this guitar were not only not original, they weren't even Rick parts. In fact, they were cheap junk. The fact is, the guitar was advertised as only having "non original tuners," and a small route. Thus the listing for it was totally deceptive.

Bottom line is, I went into the store yesterday. I think this guy thought when he sold me the guitar I was from out of state as I had it shipped out west. He was quite shocked to see me sitting (and I was sitting) in his store, asking him why what he sold me and what I got were two completely different things, and why he absolutely refused to discuss the matter from day one.

I mean, I was not going to take no comment for an answer (though that was all he was giving me.) But I didn't get personal, or slam things down and yell like some of the customers that I saw in my former retail days. But this guy was shaking, even though I never came within 15 feet or got up from the chair that I was sitting in. He asked me to leave the store. Then he called the cops. I left, but did stick around to talk to the authorities, who thought that I was the store owner when they rolled up.

This one may be going to court, though I have advised my card company that this guy has my money, and my (for the time being) guitar. All I wanted was one of them back. He gave me neither. I'm hoping the card company will see the light.

phlemmy · Post by **phlemmy** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:08 am

Go get 'em!

beatlefreak · Post by **beatlefreak** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:17 am

If the store owner has both your money and the guitar, it theft. Plain and simple. File charges and have him arrested.

studiotwosession · Post by **studiotwosession** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:31 am

It was a credit card purchase. I disputed it and somehow the company made the focus of the investigation this guy's two day return policy (I was told when I bought it that since I was having it shipped ten business days away, there would be no problem with the time necessary to ship but of course they forgot about that when the return came back) instead of the integrity of the item and the ad for it.

How that happened baffles me, as I supplied info from my guitar guy. But I lost round two with the card people (even though they told me initially that I had won. I don't think they ever even questioned the guy about my complaint because he had no comeback for my side of the story whatsoever.)

But now, in spite of the fact that decision was made six days ago at the card company, the guy kept the guitar, and refused to even call his card company. So I'm going to try to take it back to them and say I used up a third of my weekend trying to make it right and this guy simply refused to even make a two minute call.

In a way, though, I'm glad he did. I don't want the guitar back. Maybe the company can go "heck, you idiot. All you had to do was give him the guitar. You failed. Now you lose." But I'm not holding my breath. I'll file against him this week if necessary.

elysrand · Post by **elysrand** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:32 am

Simply file a written dispute, exactly according to the dispute rules the 800-number representative from the card issuer gives you. The basis for your dispute is that the goods or services you received were not as-represented, and you have returned the merchandise to the store from whom it was bought. The store, however, failed to credit your account.

That is an open-and-shut consumer credit card dispute and you will win. But you must jump through all the paperwork hoops in writing, exactly as the credit card company requires, in order to win. They will want proof that you returned the merchandise, usually in the form of a shipping receipt from a major carrier. If you have that, you are clean. It usually helps to include a copy of a complaint letter that you wrote, which details why the goods or services were not as represented. If you have not written one of those yet and sent it certified-mail return-receipt to the store, then do so now, then file the dispute a few days later.

studiotwosession · Post by **studiotwosession** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:41 am

Hey Elys, that's the dispute we filed. He filed paperwork that was cherry picked (only the emails that buffeted his side of the story.) And they never bothered to call my guitar guy, which just shows how lazy they are. Fortunately I live here, and can sue here. It's no fun. But someone's got to do it.

rickenbrother · Post by **rickenbrother** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:54 am

Go get 'em, Glenn!! I hope it works out for you.

lionheart · Post by **lionheart** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:01 am

You might want to call the Attorney General's Office too, Glenn. At any rate, I think you may be saving the world from yet another phony if you take action.

studiotwosession · Post by **studiotwosession** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:27 am

I have filed a complaint with the NYC Consumer Affairs group. But I'll keep that in mind, Charlie.

I got off some good one liners at the store, in front of this guy's customers (Sat. is probably a better day for this kind of thing.)

"How many of these guitars (gesturing to his wall of instruments) have been stripped of their parts and are being advertised deceptively by you?"

"You must be really embarrassed, one of your customers here in your store, in front of your other customers, talking about what fraud you commit, and you saying nothing whatsoever in your defense regarding what you did."

"My guitar guy's been in business for 30 years, and worked for the company that made this guitar. What is it about Rickenbackers that you know that he doesn't?"

"You're looking awfully guilty, not looking me in the eye, not discussing this case. And you're calling the cops on me?"

bassduke49 · Post by **bassduke49** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:46 am

Am I missing something? You're making the assumption that the seller knew it had non-original parts (other than tuners). Is it possible he didn't know and couldn't tell? How many "experts" out there CAN tell an Allparts bridge from a Rick one, etc.? It's easy to sit back with our collective knowledge here at the Forum and call shots, but you can't assume that every dealer rep is going to know or understand these details as we do. May I suggest that whoever modified this bass traded it in to this shop and represented it as being all original, or perhaps told them that he had replaced parts, but overall, to most customers and dealers, it was still a Rick bass and looked original. To take the dealer to task for not knowing his stuff and selling something that he thought was original (and maybe it works just fine), but wasn't, and doing that in such a confrontational manner in front of his customers is pretty heavy-handed, if you ask me. Have I worked in retail? No, not at this level, but as a journalist who sees a lot of this in other enthusiasts' realms. Pissing matches like this rarely end with mutual satisfaction. Frankly, this kind of confrontation in a retail setting is rude and unwarranted.

geddeeee · Post by **geddeeee** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:04 am

Could be an honest mistake, if not, NAIL 'EM TO THE WALL!!!!! LOL!

studiotwosession · Post by **studiotwosession** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:46 am

You know why I could tell? Because as my guitar guy pointed out, these were not decent parts. All Parts wouldn't be caught within a million miles of this made in China (no offense China, I know in some things you are making actually is decent quality) junk.

These parts wouldn't be suitable replacements for any name brand U.S. guitar, and my guitar guy said so in a letter (I saw this junk. The parts were ****, and the installation was ****, too. One can hide a lot behind a pickguard.)

They are the sort of things on the worst, illegally made copies (the kinds of stuff RIC has taken down from ebay in five minutes flat.) I've read conversations about these kinds of parts without knowing what some of the guys on here were talking about. But believe me, even if you know squat about pots, when you see this stuff next to the real deal, the difference screams at you.

Plus, from the very first issue we found with the guitar, the guy wrote me back in the most pseudo lawyerly double talk note (i.e. I'm not gonna be honest with you, I am going to push credibility beyond the limit from the get go. Believe me, when a guy says "I will admit to nothing" before you accuse him, it's a red flag.) He never looked me in the eye, would never even defend his ad for the item. He's never even offered to have a conversation on whether his ad was even halfway honest.

And if you're NOT an expert, quit writing that you are all over your listings, the web, etc. Because then, right there, if you're not one you are a liar. And I'm not having this row with some minimum wage clerk, this guy is the owner.

The pots, wiring, pickups, pickguard, tailpiece are all the cheapest junk going.

lyle_from_minneapolis · Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:28 am

I dunno, Paul...you're not mentioning the claim of being an expert, that they have both the guitar AND the money, that they clammed up rather than make an effort to help, and that this happened in New York City, where rude and unwarranted confrontations are not exactly unusual. Glenn may be outspoken (something I greatly enjoy on the forum), but he appears to be dealing with a shady one.

studiotwosession · Post by **studiotwosession** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:31 pm

I'll admit I'm not a mind reader. But I could tell when he first knew who he was talking to in his store that this guy never, ever expected me to be his environs, much less live in New York and making time for a visit. I had the guitar sent to the west coast. My credit card is addressed in IL. Everything about me initially told him "this guy's a million miles away."

He advertises on Gbase. But he does not have his short, two day return policy in any of the info listings on there, not even in the general info on his store. He does have some miniscule site up elsewhere with such a policy buried in it, but of course you will most likely call him directly from the big sites, never visiting his site, much less swim through its buried fine print.

So he can say, "my return policy is on the web." With a policy that short, he can try to stick people in other states with junk it appears. When I bought the instrument and told them I wanted it shipped halfway across the country and said if there were any problems it would come back, would the time be allowed for transit. They were yes, yes, yes.

Frankly I never thought it would get even this far with the card company. But there's a good chance his company and mine are one and the same, and they probably don't want to lose a two grand plus commission.

In defense of NY, most of the highly-charged debates between customers and staff I've seen in retail stores were not in NYC, or NY state. But really, I just was standing up for myself with someone who has steadfastly in my eyes refused to do the right thing. I am not going to abuse anyone, even if I think they're underhanded, and will always leave it up to court.

bassduke49 · Post by **bassduke49** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:03 pm

That could well be, but again, we're making the assumption that the dealer knew what was behind the pickguard. I don't go digging into every used bass I get to see if the pots are original, and if I saw one Rick bass every year or so, I'm not sure I would know a replacement pickup if I saw one.

Let me paint this scenario. A dealer takes a Rickenbacker bass in trade, checks what they are going for these days, and puts it up for sale. He probably isn't an official Rick dealer, and since they aren't real common, he doesn't see them very often, and just assumes it's a standard Rick bass (I know a couple of Rick dealers and a couple of used instrument dealers who've asked ME about Rick basses -- just to show you that dealers aren't necessarily experts). He sells it to Glenn as he sells to everyone -- as is. Now Glenn has him ship the guitar to his expert (have I got the sequence right?). Has Glenn seen the bass? If not, he bought it sight unseen. Glenn's expert says "dude, this ain't right" and that's fine. Glenn goes back to dealer and says "you sold me ****." Now, dealer doesn't understand; he sold Glenn a Rick bass, and he has to defend himself against Glenn and a some unseen "expert" whom he can't challenge.

Now, Glenn didn't get his money's worth since he got cheap parts, and in all fairness, the dealer should have said, "explain to me what's wrong and if I agree, we'll make an adjustment on the price." If the dealer is giving him the silent treatment, he's either defending his position as "sold as is" or just doesn't know what to do.

If Glenn brought the bass back, asked to trade it in for his money back, and the dealer won't give either, than, sure, there's a problem. Glenn, did you try to take the bass back? (Am I getting this right?) The dealer should have given your money back in exchange for the return, and try his luck with the next guy. Maybe that's the way things are done in New York, I dunno. Seems counterproductive on both sides; one being obstinate, the other accusatorial.