Gonna hve to disagree with us taking your comments out of contexte. Please explain to me in what contexte attacking the integrity of a CEO wouldn't be a personal attack, but mearly a comment.
When heads up intestinal structures become commom term not meaning anything bad, I'll take back what I've said. Until then, you had a message, delivered it properly, insulted the CEO of the company, and claimed to be "just disagreeing"
I don't turn a blind to any bad thing this company has done, lemons exist everywhere (though more often in some companies than others) but no matter who's side you're on, personal insults lead to nothing.
Quality of "R" tailpieces
Moderators: rickenbrother, ajish4
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tennis_nick
- Intermediate Member
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:56 am
Hi Jingle Jangle & thank you for your response to my earlier post.
Please allow me to retort to some of the interesting points you have made.
Most of the suggestions i have made in my previous posts regarding the improving or modifying of hardware on the Rickenbacker guitars are as you well know all good suggestions. Any self respecting Rickenbacker player would love to have on his/her guitar if you think otherwise i think you are in the minority. if they were not valid suggestions then they would not keep being raised time & again or "done to death" as you put it in forums such as this one this one.
Yes i have been thinking about this quite a lot because i do actually play Rickenbacker guitars. I don't know if you actually play yours Paul or whether you just collect them because they look good. Also not too sure what homework you think i should have done either, but i think owning a Rick entitles me to examine it and make comments on it's features and shortcomings on forums such as this. I also believe owning a Rick entitles me to comment on the bits of the hardware that i (and others i've no doubt) would like to see changed or improved upon, i mean i do live in a free country (or at least did last time i checked).
If i want to put my so called "laundry list" out on the forum for unbiased members of the forum to discuss, i believe the rules of the forum entitle me to so & i don't need you to patronise me for doing it. if we can talk about Rickenbacker guitars warts and all with no fear of being stifled than its purpose is indeed served.
You say there are very good reasons for the status quo re hardware, well what are they Paul lets have them I'd love to know what they are? perhaps the technology isn't out there? or is it a case of can't change won't change.
You also state that Rickenbacker "is very busy filling orders for existing products in the line without arbitrary improvements or generating modified products to satisfy a very small percentage of the market" what does this mean? that it's o.k. to know something is wrong or not up to scratch but rather then correct it, keep on making it? what does that say about standards & quality?
or are you suggesting that because Rickenbacker are very busy at the moment just leave them alone.
In my business if something is wrong in the production line everybody from the floor cleaner up to the CEO can stop the line immediately if there is a quality issue. The Japanese call it "Kaizen" immediate on the spot improvement.
Don't be puzzled by my tailpiece problem Paul it's an absolute fact that it's a substandard part & it's also a fact that it's not the only one out there. I have three new guitars with very similar quality issues, one that's passable the others truly awful. I'm very pleased for you that on your visit to the factory Mr Hall showed you a high quality tailpiece, was it for one of your guitars? because it certainly didn't end up on one of my 360's.
And if as you suggest i may have got one from a batch that should have been rejected what does that then say about the "legendry" Rick commitment to quality.
Now i'm not for a moment suggesting that issues like these do not crop up everywhere and in every industry (cars included) from time to time, but if as you state Rick is such a small company dedicated to such high quality & integrity, then why did this substandard batch of tailpieces end up actually being fitted & more importantly what happened to the final quality control check before these guitars were shipped out of the door.
I also object to being called an uninformed "naysayer" with no knowledge of manufacturing. I'm a senior motor trade manager and i have a lot knowledge & experience of the manufacturing process along with 25 years of experience in parts manufacturing & supply. My list of as you put it "preferences" are excellent & valid suggestions that i'm sure you wouldn't say no to if they were offered to you on one of your Rick's
Lets also get some perspective on your term "handcrafted instruments" shall we. Rickenbacker sell well made instruments of generally good quality at a fair price for a U.S.A manufactured item. All guitars are to some degree or other "handcrafted" but like most other production line guitars being made Rickenbackers are of a modular construction & made on CNC machines like the rest of them, so were certainly not talking about handmade boutique guitars here & i'm not expecting that sort of quality.
It's also a fact that some of this hardware was designed 40-50 years ago & it was perfectly adequate back then because that was the only technology available (some of it was even rubbish back then Kaufman vibrola anybody?) We are now in the 21st century and the whole world and his dog has moved on, therefore lets re-iterate shall we. Keep the classic designs features that we all love so much, but for god's sake enhance & improve the hardware & electronics where possible, to bring these fantastic guitars into the 21st century.
Any CEO worthy of that title would welcome and encourage suggestions & ideas from the very loyal fanbase that Rickenbacker enjoys, i'm surprised that the official Rickenbacker website does not have a page that indeed asks the question:
What features and enhancements would you like to see incorperated into our future guitars?
Surely then Rickenbacker would be able to gauge if i'm in the minority or the majority with my "crazy outlandish suggestions" won't they Paul? or better still set up a custom boutique section & charge what you like for custom Ricks, i know I'd pay a lot more for a custom Rick the a standard one.
Maybe on your next factory visit or dinner date with Mr Hall you can take my laundry list with you & ask what he thinks of it, I'd love to hear chapter & verse on the "very good reasons" why none of these outrages improvements are feasible.
Zubair.
Please allow me to retort to some of the interesting points you have made.
Most of the suggestions i have made in my previous posts regarding the improving or modifying of hardware on the Rickenbacker guitars are as you well know all good suggestions. Any self respecting Rickenbacker player would love to have on his/her guitar if you think otherwise i think you are in the minority. if they were not valid suggestions then they would not keep being raised time & again or "done to death" as you put it in forums such as this one this one.
Yes i have been thinking about this quite a lot because i do actually play Rickenbacker guitars. I don't know if you actually play yours Paul or whether you just collect them because they look good. Also not too sure what homework you think i should have done either, but i think owning a Rick entitles me to examine it and make comments on it's features and shortcomings on forums such as this. I also believe owning a Rick entitles me to comment on the bits of the hardware that i (and others i've no doubt) would like to see changed or improved upon, i mean i do live in a free country (or at least did last time i checked).
If i want to put my so called "laundry list" out on the forum for unbiased members of the forum to discuss, i believe the rules of the forum entitle me to so & i don't need you to patronise me for doing it. if we can talk about Rickenbacker guitars warts and all with no fear of being stifled than its purpose is indeed served.
You say there are very good reasons for the status quo re hardware, well what are they Paul lets have them I'd love to know what they are? perhaps the technology isn't out there? or is it a case of can't change won't change.
You also state that Rickenbacker "is very busy filling orders for existing products in the line without arbitrary improvements or generating modified products to satisfy a very small percentage of the market" what does this mean? that it's o.k. to know something is wrong or not up to scratch but rather then correct it, keep on making it? what does that say about standards & quality?
or are you suggesting that because Rickenbacker are very busy at the moment just leave them alone.
In my business if something is wrong in the production line everybody from the floor cleaner up to the CEO can stop the line immediately if there is a quality issue. The Japanese call it "Kaizen" immediate on the spot improvement.
Don't be puzzled by my tailpiece problem Paul it's an absolute fact that it's a substandard part & it's also a fact that it's not the only one out there. I have three new guitars with very similar quality issues, one that's passable the others truly awful. I'm very pleased for you that on your visit to the factory Mr Hall showed you a high quality tailpiece, was it for one of your guitars? because it certainly didn't end up on one of my 360's.
And if as you suggest i may have got one from a batch that should have been rejected what does that then say about the "legendry" Rick commitment to quality.
Now i'm not for a moment suggesting that issues like these do not crop up everywhere and in every industry (cars included) from time to time, but if as you state Rick is such a small company dedicated to such high quality & integrity, then why did this substandard batch of tailpieces end up actually being fitted & more importantly what happened to the final quality control check before these guitars were shipped out of the door.
I also object to being called an uninformed "naysayer" with no knowledge of manufacturing. I'm a senior motor trade manager and i have a lot knowledge & experience of the manufacturing process along with 25 years of experience in parts manufacturing & supply. My list of as you put it "preferences" are excellent & valid suggestions that i'm sure you wouldn't say no to if they were offered to you on one of your Rick's
Lets also get some perspective on your term "handcrafted instruments" shall we. Rickenbacker sell well made instruments of generally good quality at a fair price for a U.S.A manufactured item. All guitars are to some degree or other "handcrafted" but like most other production line guitars being made Rickenbackers are of a modular construction & made on CNC machines like the rest of them, so were certainly not talking about handmade boutique guitars here & i'm not expecting that sort of quality.
It's also a fact that some of this hardware was designed 40-50 years ago & it was perfectly adequate back then because that was the only technology available (some of it was even rubbish back then Kaufman vibrola anybody?) We are now in the 21st century and the whole world and his dog has moved on, therefore lets re-iterate shall we. Keep the classic designs features that we all love so much, but for god's sake enhance & improve the hardware & electronics where possible, to bring these fantastic guitars into the 21st century.
Any CEO worthy of that title would welcome and encourage suggestions & ideas from the very loyal fanbase that Rickenbacker enjoys, i'm surprised that the official Rickenbacker website does not have a page that indeed asks the question:
What features and enhancements would you like to see incorperated into our future guitars?
Surely then Rickenbacker would be able to gauge if i'm in the minority or the majority with my "crazy outlandish suggestions" won't they Paul? or better still set up a custom boutique section & charge what you like for custom Ricks, i know I'd pay a lot more for a custom Rick the a standard one.
Maybe on your next factory visit or dinner date with Mr Hall you can take my laundry list with you & ask what he thinks of it, I'd love to hear chapter & verse on the "very good reasons" why none of these outrages improvements are feasible.
Zubair.
I mostly stay out of these type threads but for what it's worth would like to put in my two cents worth..hope owners of any of the about to be mentioned guitars take it it the spirt intended...Owned a masterbuilt John English Tele that the first owner paid nearly $7,000 for that had orange peal paint on the back..looked like the clear coat was applied to soon....have opened up several Gretschs of recent vintage to find a very cheapo wiring harness...one had a neck straight from the factory..so twisted that was unable to fix....I've owned nine Rickenbackers and they have been the best quality in terms of workmanship/finish/quality of parts...to keep in perspective, I really enjoy playing a Ric, but they are not my fave..that goes to Stratocaters and Jazzmasters...but I have never played a better made, higher quality axe...
Reverb set to stun !!
Zubair: To be brief, those of us who buy a Rickenbacker do so for a number of reasons. From a players' perspective the decision may be based on sound, appearance, playability or overall quality of the US made instrument. From a collectors' perspective, the decision may also be based on rarity, condition or provenance.
Over the course of time we may find that certain adjustments make an instrument more playable or practical for our own unique needs. While these changes or customizations will suit our needs, often times others will not feel the same need and embrace the stock instrument.
I see that you have felt the need to customize your Rickenbackers and many who post here will identify that philosophy. Others will avoid that approach feeling that the stock instrument gives them everything they need.
At the end of the day, in purchasing a Rickenbacker we either accept what is has to offer us or we don't. Perhaps we will modify it, or we may choose to leave it alone. Our decision is likely to be based on affordability, sound and playability and not the efficiency of the manufacturing process, however interesting it may be.
Over the course of time we may find that certain adjustments make an instrument more playable or practical for our own unique needs. While these changes or customizations will suit our needs, often times others will not feel the same need and embrace the stock instrument.
I see that you have felt the need to customize your Rickenbackers and many who post here will identify that philosophy. Others will avoid that approach feeling that the stock instrument gives them everything they need.
At the end of the day, in purchasing a Rickenbacker we either accept what is has to offer us or we don't. Perhaps we will modify it, or we may choose to leave it alone. Our decision is likely to be based on affordability, sound and playability and not the efficiency of the manufacturing process, however interesting it may be.
Life, as with music, often requires one to let go of the melody and listen to the rhythm
Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
Please join the Official RickResource Forum Facebook Page https://www.facebook.com/groups/379271585440277
Free speech, and the ability to offer opinion, even when one is not happy with product, is essential if this Forum is to continue to evolve, and not end up as a gallery of nodding sycophants.
Zubair has done so, without personal affront, and as an individual wishing to address professional issues that he has invested in, and, obviously cares about.
He addresses valid points that have been covered here before, and are still an issue for many, regarding various hardware.
His experience in his field of parts and manufacture, tells us why the Japanese lead the world in motor vehicle manufacture, not that any independent mind needs telling. Their quality control is second to none, and I've yet to find anyone who will trade their Lexus for anything.
When one sees a comment from a CEO that has emphasis in the negative, and could be interpreted both personally or professionally, about a "Toyota bred mentality" regardless of being possibly taken in humorous context, it does not come across as particularly constructive or positive.
They are perceived excellence in their chosen field, and one would hope the CEO of any company would want to be in the same place.
*Disclaimer*
I drive a German car.
Zubair has done so, without personal affront, and as an individual wishing to address professional issues that he has invested in, and, obviously cares about.
He addresses valid points that have been covered here before, and are still an issue for many, regarding various hardware.
His experience in his field of parts and manufacture, tells us why the Japanese lead the world in motor vehicle manufacture, not that any independent mind needs telling. Their quality control is second to none, and I've yet to find anyone who will trade their Lexus for anything.
When one sees a comment from a CEO that has emphasis in the negative, and could be interpreted both personally or professionally, about a "Toyota bred mentality" regardless of being possibly taken in humorous context, it does not come across as particularly constructive or positive.
They are perceived excellence in their chosen field, and one would hope the CEO of any company would want to be in the same place.
*Disclaimer*
I drive a German car.
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incubus2432
- Senior Member
- Posts: 4174
- Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:26 am
Andrew, the mentality among Japanese car makers is the complete antithesis of what we do here, hence my comment. We don't need to change the model design every year just to keep up and have focus groups to try and outwit the consumer; we sell all we can make, as is, thank you.
The spirit of ultra mass production is certainly centered in Japan; the spirit of ultimate craftsmanship for cars still resides in Europe and is much closer to the ethic and style we embrace. When was the last time you saw a Toyota (or Lexus) at a Concours d'Elegance?
Sorry, Andrew, but this is one CEO that most certainly would not wish to be in such company.
The spirit of ultra mass production is certainly centered in Japan; the spirit of ultimate craftsmanship for cars still resides in Europe and is much closer to the ethic and style we embrace. When was the last time you saw a Toyota (or Lexus) at a Concours d'Elegance?
Sorry, Andrew, but this is one CEO that most certainly would not wish to be in such company.
One of my brothers has been driving Lexus for sometime now. Slight improvements have been made to make it a better car with each model.
It is certainly much more reliable than the Mercedes' or BMWs some members of my family drive, that unfortunately, spend quite sometime at their respective dealers for something or other.
Something quite interesting I found while in Europe last, were the amount of Japanese cars on the road, and the desire of various people there to own and drive one, especially the Hondas, which appear to be some sort of status symbol, especially in Slovakia. Quite an eye opener.
Die hard that I am, I have kept my classic Saabs and refuse to go near the new GM ones. Neither do any of the newer European cars do anything for me (although my wife is quite fond of her Citroen), least of all the Rolls and Maybach which appear to me to be quite lacking in design. Some call them "classic" design, I call them boxes on wheels void of any redeeming design quality.
But back to the topic. Fender certainly hasn't created new models every year. The Stratocaster and the Telecaster are instantly recognisable as the descendants of those instruments of the fifties.
As a matter of fact one of my newer Stratocasters, an American Deluxe is excellent in EVERY detail and I have yet to find any fault with it.
It is certainly much more reliable than the Mercedes' or BMWs some members of my family drive, that unfortunately, spend quite sometime at their respective dealers for something or other.
Something quite interesting I found while in Europe last, were the amount of Japanese cars on the road, and the desire of various people there to own and drive one, especially the Hondas, which appear to be some sort of status symbol, especially in Slovakia. Quite an eye opener.
Die hard that I am, I have kept my classic Saabs and refuse to go near the new GM ones. Neither do any of the newer European cars do anything for me (although my wife is quite fond of her Citroen), least of all the Rolls and Maybach which appear to me to be quite lacking in design. Some call them "classic" design, I call them boxes on wheels void of any redeeming design quality.
But back to the topic. Fender certainly hasn't created new models every year. The Stratocaster and the Telecaster are instantly recognisable as the descendants of those instruments of the fifties.
As a matter of fact one of my newer Stratocasters, an American Deluxe is excellent in EVERY detail and I have yet to find any fault with it.
I think that there is definitely an argument to be made in some cases for "subtle improvements", but in many cases manufacturers of guitars often go back to original designs after these "improvements'" novelty wears off. Fender and Gibson have been such manufacturers. I would say that Gretsch has been another. Ric on the other hand, I have found to be a reliable source for excellent quality instruments that do not necessitate the upgrading of parts or conversions to updated pickup schemes that other guitars do. I think that some of the newer improvements such as the reversion to the slim headstock and neck profiles, the adjustable pole hi-gains, the updated 12 string headstock, etc., show that there ARE developments being made. The new hi-gains and the new 12 string headstock are two such improvements that have the player in mind, rather than just resting on the laurels of the traditional toaster or the traditional closed-back headstock. This is obviously an area for debate that has many different sides and I'm not going to presume to tell anyone how they should address each other, but I believe that there are improvements being made and that Ric isn't just resting on its past with the Beatles, Byrds, etc., and is moving forward. I yield the soapbox...
Sarcasm just doesn't come through when you're typing...
This is certainly an interesting debate. I find myself on both sides of the fence, but what seems to float to the surface is the question "If your job or part of it was to install tailpieces on the best guitars on the planet and you picked one up and found that it had some sharp edges, wouldn't you want to do something about it?"
Perhaps the production schedules and labor costs can't justify the extra employee time to clean them up. I imagine that once you figure in all the factors, the modern hourly cost of having an employee must be monsterous compared to back in the 1960's, but I have a feeling I'd be in the boss's office saying "Boss, we really need to find somebody to clean these things up before they go to be plated." I'd suppose I'd probably end up fired. In the mean time, I don't have a problem with cleaning up my own tailpieces, if needed. The rest of the guitar makes it worth my time.
Perhaps the production schedules and labor costs can't justify the extra employee time to clean them up. I imagine that once you figure in all the factors, the modern hourly cost of having an employee must be monsterous compared to back in the 1960's, but I have a feeling I'd be in the boss's office saying "Boss, we really need to find somebody to clean these things up before they go to be plated." I'd suppose I'd probably end up fired. In the mean time, I don't have a problem with cleaning up my own tailpieces, if needed. The rest of the guitar makes it worth my time.