The folly of finding an old Fender.

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:58 pm

A few weeks ago, I decided that as a gigging bass player who was also getting a steady increase in session work, I should probably have a slightly more diverse arsenal of instruments then I already do. Not any knock against my Ricks, which I love to death, but sometimes i'd just like something else to thump on at gigs and for recordings - I know most of you guys will agree with me on that.

I ruled out nearly everything for one reason or another (lots of active stuff out there, and i'm not into the multi-laminate thing either) and decided to start looking for a Fender. I like both P's and J's, and have owned a few, but i've never really been able to keep 'em for very long for whatever reason.

So this time, I decided i'd go for something vintage - my reasoning being that I might enjoy having an old Fender rather than playing an off the shelf CIJ or MIM or whatever. Plus, if I did decide to sell it, it'd hold it's value or might even be worth more.

It didn't take long for me to rule out Fenders from the 50's and 60's - obviously the prices have just gone through the roof in recent years and it's getting worse all the time.

I also knew that basses made in the mid to late 70's tended to be incredibly heavy, and sometimes of questionable quality. I play four hour gigs weekly and a '75 Jazz that weighs 15 pounds just isn't going to be any fun.

So I began looking into the missing link - Fender basses made between roughly 1970 and 1973.

I made a quick trip to Guitar Center in Manhattan for something unrelated, and just picked up a few basses from that era - they all had good weight and no weird three-bolt necks. The downside was that they often had changed parts including pickups. But I started searching, because I felt like I had come up with the perfect "vintage" to buy.

I started asking around - the consensus seemed to be that basses of this vintage were nearly identical in every way to basses made in '68 and '69 - but for a fraction of the cost (in most cases). I was finding some really nice looking Precision basses around the $2500 pricepoint - perfectly affordable and sure to rise in the coming years (barring a recession, or the vintage guitar bubble bursting).

But just as I began to get excited at the prospect of owning a cool early 70's Fender, I began finding more and more reasons not to.

People - Fender enthhusiasts - whom I asked about the instruments started warning me about counterfeits - they were apparently so good that no less an authority than George Gruhn and his staff were now having difficulty telling the fakes from the authentic ones. With the recent rise of the Relics, more and more people seem to be building vintage Fender instruments from Warmoth or USACG parts and aging them to complete perfection.

Most of the basses I came across also had changed parts - in many cases, the bodies and necks were of different years/eras, they had been (VERY poorly) refinished, the pickups had been swapped, there had been hacking under the non-original pickguard, it just never seemed to end. The instruments that I found affordable, I was now beginning to question - and doubt everything about them.

These two plus weeks of scouring eBay, Gbase, and all the shops in the NY/NJ area that have old instruments have been fruitless - not counting the knowledge i've gained on these instruments, which i'm grateful for. But in the last few days, the dream of owning a really cool old Fender bass has died.

I'm not even sure what to do now. I've found a really, really cool bass in the Lakland Decade. IMO, they nailed a vintage vibe without copying too much, and I just love the Darkstar pickups. They're USA made and quite expensive, but a "Skyline Series" (made overseas) version is on the way - about nine months from now.

In the interim, i'm probably going to have to stick to my guns - my Ricks - and wonder why I even decided to stray in the first place.

jps · Post by **jps** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:10 pm

I found a '97 California Precision Special for rather cheap a couple years ago and added a BA II bridge, Hipshot Ultralite tuners (of course!) and Seymour Duncan Vintage P and Classic Stack J pickups to it. It plays and sounds great, so it is not neccesary to look for the more expensive, desirable Fenders to get something nice.

shinynewtoy · Post by **shinynewtoy** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:23 pm

JB...

I know you're in the mood for true vintage... but have you ever checked out a Geddy? Mine's dead off-the-shelf stock and it kills... if you've never played one come check mine out. I'm not that far away.

peewee · Post by **peewee** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:25 pm

John, I can completely relate to your frustration. You really need to be careful these days and as a result, I'll only buy vintage from people that I totally trust or have known for quite some time.

As for the Lakland basses, the Skyline series are a great deal for the cash. I've a number of friends who own them and I've been very impressed with the overall build quality, playability and tone. One cat has an early Duck Dunn that is incredible and one of my best friends dropped his vintage Guild Starfire IVs in favor of a Skyline HB w/ Dark Stars; he's also been eyeing a new Dunn. I've been thinking of picking up either a JO or Glaub myself. Great basses and tremendous value when compared with what else is out there. Best of luck in your quest!

rickboy88 · Post by **rickboy88** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:33 pm

Another one to throw out there is the Fender Jaguar bass, which I believe was demo'd at NAMM in January 2006. It has various pickup switching arrangements (active/passive/series/parallel). The humbucking in some modes is nice. The only thing I sort of miss from the Ric setup are separate pickup volume controls, but I also don't have that on my other non-Ric basses. It has a jazz neck and jazz pickups with the Jaguar body shape. Mine is a Japan market sunburst finish. In the U.S. just red and black are available. All Jag basses are made in Japan as far as I know.

Some don't like the Fender active electronics, but I like it on this bass. You get a sound on steroids for lack of a better term, more edge and deeper bass with it engaged. The active mode has its own bass and treble roll off roller knobs. There is a detailed review at bassplayer.com from May 2006.

They are hard to try out though, as the new model is more of a niche market than the more well known models.

At first it felt weird getting my first Fender after all these years, but I've gotten used to it. I actually learned on a (heavy) beat up sunburst jazz copy in the late 70's when I was a teen.

bob_atherton · Post by **bob_atherton** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:06 pm

John, good posting. I use two MIJ or CIJ Fenders. I have a 20 year old Jazz and a brand new P. They are both wonderful basses and it is great not to have to get paranoid about the odd ding or insurance premiums.

Although the P was a touch squeaky clean when I first got it I have 'sanded' the neck well with Scotchbrite and rubbed a lot of fingerboard oil into it and buffed up the fingerboard a lot. This with the Scotchbrite really gives the neck a worn it vintage vibe.

A dreadful thing to admit to is that I am using the P more than any other bass at the moment. I too found the whole vintage Fender thing a total minefield that I was not confident enough to negotiate.

lennon211 · Post by **lennon211** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:23 pm

I was in a guitar dealer the other day that deals in vintage gear as well as new stuff and I spied what I at first thought was a vintage Fender bass, only to see that it was a custom shop Relic bass. The amount of work that goes into them, whether you like it or not, is astounding. It really sucks though that there is such a growing stigma on vintage Fenders since they are being forged more and more, especially as the price bubble keeps climbing.

wints · Post by **wints** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:28 am

I've hopefully got an option on a '63 Jazz sometime later in the year. The bass needs a good set up, having been under the bed for 20 years, but it is just full of mojo.

Don't compromise yourself John. Keep looking for what you REALLY want, and be patient...

bob_atherton · Post by **bob_atherton** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:12 am

Keep looking for what you REALLY want, and be patient...

Wints, the thing is what I REALLY want is an old, about a '66 Fender P. The problem is knowing what I am buying. I don't think I would risk an ebay purchase on a bass like this.

I got my fingers burnt a few years ago when I bought a '73 Fender P from a local store, it was not all it was meant to be. The neck was a '73, but the body was most likely Japanese. I only found this out after I had the bass for about a year. The shop just didn't want to know...

I guess If was 100% sure it was the real deal then I would buy it, but as I don't know anyone with a mid 60's P, it could be quite a long wait.

My Japanese one looks great, feels and sounds great. I have just ordered a new '62 pick guard from Tony at Pickguardian. That will increase the mojo factor a bit more as well.

peewee · Post by **peewee** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:20 am

Bob, the first REAL bass I ever owned was a fantastic '66 Precision. I paid a scant $200 for that guitar back in '77; it was merely a used guitar then. That bass is the one that I use as a benchmark when comparing all other Fenders. If I can't get the vintage Rick that I want, I well may pickup another P; the thought has crossed my mind more than once.... never should have parted with the first one.

rick_ovic · Post by **rick_ovic** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:24 am

JB, I agree with Andy's sentiments. Be patient. You know as well as I do that once you have your heart set on a particular instrument, you'll ultimately find a way to end up with one. Or two. Or more.

jwr2 · Post by **jwr2** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:37 am

I build my own Fender style p-basses ... I took this one out last night to play ...

http://www.3dentourage.com/425/5%20string%20p%20bass.htm

and sometimes I take this one out ...

http://www.3dentourage.com/425/c5pbass.htm

86kubicki · Post by **86kubicki** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:38 am

John - we've exchanged a few e-mails about this in the past, but the US made Laklands are great basses! They show up regularly on Ebay at decent prices and seem to have that extra "something" over the Korean built Skylines. I love the Decade as well - that will be my next Lakland purchase (just have to save up some dough). Here are my three Lakies:

Of course if you really want a Fender, may I suggest one of these?

sloop_john_b · Post by **sloop_john_b** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:47 am

Thanks alot for the replies guys!

Bob: I have played many a Geddy bass in my day and I do like them quite a bit - in fact, I would probably have owned one long ago, if not for the fact that black is the only color they come in!

Mike: I've appreciated your help over at the DP with all this! They really love their Laklands over there and it's got me wanting to pick one up. I think i'm gonna wait for a Decade, though - they're just too cool.

David: I have played many Jaguar basses and I also like them quite a bit! But again, like the Geddy bass, it's the limited color options that have kept me from buying one. In Japan, they've got Olympic White and 3TS to choose from - two colors I likely would have pulled the trigger on long ago if they were available here.

Wints/Darren: A nice sentiment, but what I REALLY want in a Fender is something from the early 60's, and for me, the big money goes to Ricks. So it's just not gonna happen anytime soon - if it's gonna be something old, it's gonna be a '71 or a '72. But it's looking less and less likely.

Steve: I do remember our conversations - I really wanted one (A Lakland) at that time, but every time I was close it seemed to fall through. Do post some pictures if you pick up a Decade! I'm really enamoured with these instruments, especially with the Darkstars (Not sure about these new Lakland Chi-Sonic pickups). Do you know, approximately, what the USA Decades retail for? I know they list at $4k.

shinynewtoy · Post by **shinynewtoy** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:11 am

JB...

Belt Sander! Send 'er to Dale! It can be the way you want it!!