660/12 is bringin' me down

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 3:01 pm

Okay, I put a set of pyramids on my new 660/12. Now I've played (in stores) a 360/12 and a 620/12, and while the necks were too narrow for me, the action was like buttah. Low, easy to play. My 660/12 is harder than hell to play. Tough time pushin' those strings down. I was told before the guitar was shipped it would be set up, so my question is, is there supposed to be a different feel and playability (I mean string height and subsequent ease, not width)? I had hoped for that impossibly low, easy Rickenbacker action. Do I need another setup? It tunes and intonates fine. I bought new from what I consider a reputable dealer across the country. If this is how it plays, I'm taking six strings off and will play an overpriced 660/6 with spare tuners! Shoulda tried before I buyed! Arrrgh!

admin · Post by **admin** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 4:37 pm

Jerry: There are many fine 660/12s out there that play exceedingly well. I had Pyramids on my 450/12 for a while and I found them to be very stiff and fairly rough compared to other strings. The tonality was great and the quality of the strings quite apparent, however, it took considerable pressure to hold them down.

Before I would spend more money on a setup, I would first try switching strings, the RIC set for example. Of sourse, a truss-rod adjustment is likely as the RIC set will not have the tension of the Pyramids.

aristeas · Post by **aristeas** » Mon Oct 06, 2003 7:40 pm

Hi Jerry,
I've had exactly the same experience. My 660/12TP came with Pyramids on it. They sounded great and the action was vey low, but they gave me serious hand cramps trying to play bar chords or up near the nut. I'm originally a bass player and still have strong hands but with their gauges set at:-

.010/.010 - .013/.013 - .010/.020w - .013/.030 - .020w/.035 . - .030/.0465

- you're effectively trying to fret an .0765 bottom E string. Try playing an F bar chord at the first fret for a minute or two - ridiculous.

I've switched to D'Addarios which are much easier to play, with the following gauges:

.010/.010 - .013/.013 - .008/.017 - .012/.026 - .018/.036 - .026/.046

But of course you lose that magic sound, and it does mean a truss rod adjustment, and possibly even recutting the nut.

BTW - I came across a trick that helped stop the bass strings rattling in their slots. You put a rubber band over the slot and let the string pin it down. Then using a scalpel carefully cut off the ends of the rubber each side of the nut.

My intention next time, having gone through this rigmarole, is to put together a custom set of flatwound strings from two or three sets of six string flatwounds, and have the guitar professionally set up for this. I'll be aiming to keep the 'combined' gauge per string down to the gauge of the D'Addarios. And if possible, even less. It may mean that the tension of the strings will vary quite a bit from a typical setup, but I have great faith in the Ric dual truss rod system.

Good luck finding your perfect solution, it'll be out there somewhere! LK

philco · Post by **philco** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:34 am

Jerry, my father would tell you to buy a hard sponge rubber ball and carry it around and squeeze it until your finger muscles get sore. Several months of that and you have hands like you grew up milking cows on a dairy farm. Just about anything would play easy then.

Of course, setup is also important. I had to check and adjust my setup 3 times over 6 months after I bought my new 650D. Maple necks just seem to like to move around, especially new ones. New maple bass necks can undergo radical changes in just a few days. I love the feel and sound of maple, but is it ever a hassle to get to stay put!

I think you will have to stay on top of the neck situation for at least the first 6 months after purchase of a new guitar or bass. No reputable dealer can control the changes that a new maple neck goes through after it leaves his shop. BTW, maple is a very strong wood, but not a very stable one. The new owner just has to stay on top of the situation and tweak, tweak, tweak. And hope, hope, hope that the neck doesn't do something really radical. My 650D neck finally behaved itself about a year after it was manufactured. I lucked out and got a good one, but even it needed regular help until I got it past the newborn stage. Any new instrument I ever owned with a maple neck needed lots of attention at first.

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 9:08 am

Thanks, everyone. The Guitar came with Ric strings. The gauge of those and the pryamids give good tone. I play a strat and my basses regularly, so I'd say my hands are reasonably strong. I also had an accoustic 12, so I know what to expect somewhat. The strings on my 660/12 are way high, I'll see what can be done about that. I have, however used this on my my current recording project, and it sounds wonderful. Just glad we weren't video taping at the same time, people can't see the pained look on my face as I barred chords. One more session, then I'll put it in the shop for a re-set. (one prob. - finding Ric or pryamid strings locally).

fendertweed2 · Post by **fendertweed2** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 9:22 am

>BTW - I came across a trick that helped stop the bass strings rattling in their slots. You put a rubber band over the slot and let the string pin it down. Then using a scalpel carefully cut off the ends of the rubber each side of the nut.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If I follow your description, this would have a serious negative effect on tone: are you laying the string down on top of a rubber band in the nut slot so the string is not directly pressing on the nut? If so, then you're surely damping the tone considerably while you stifle the rattle.

Regards,
Jon

vicw · Post by **vicw** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:18 am

Jerry,

I see from some of your posts that you're local to the Southbay/OC area. I have had good experience with Danny Ott at Guitar Doc West in Garden Grove (partner with Guitar Doc near the FV GC). The thing that's puzzling to me is that my 340 that they set up with clearly higher action and D'Addario 10's, is easier to play than my new 381 which I had set up with SIT 9's but which has lower action but I am sure it is due to the nut, which I had to have replaced on the 340.

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:42 am

I'm thinkin' it's a nut case.

aristeas · Post by **aristeas** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 2:06 pm

Hi Jon,
"If so, then you're surely damping the tone" .. The rubber band I used was very thin, just enough to fill the gap when compressed, and the tone is unaltered (at least to my ears).

The only noticeable difference is that the sustain is a little less .. trimming the ends as close as possible to the nut is the important thing here. Still, as I said, it's a short term solution till I get a better fix with new strings and a new nut.

Cheers, LK

jazzsmith · Post by **jazzsmith** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 5:59 am

As I suggested in a previous thread - tune down a half step!! It makes those Pyramid flats really easy to play. Roger McQuinn does it. So did George.

fendertweed2 · Post by **fendertweed2** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 9:51 am

Lee,

You mention that "[t]he only noticeable difference is that the sustain is a little less..." That was the diff. in tone I thought it might have, the damping would muffle the sustain somewhat... but if it still sounds good to you and it works til it's time for a new nut, that's what counts.

Jon

shamustwin · Post by **shamustwin** » Wed Oct 15, 2003 10:41 am

A half step down then capo? Is a neck reset in order?