Advice needed

haw · Post by **haw** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:09 am

Not really Rick related at all, but since there are some seriously experienced folks here, I thought it wouldn't do any harm to ask.

I've been teaching a guy bass for a wee while now and while he's making some progress, his internal sense of rhythm is, well...terrible!

If he tries to tap his foot along to the beat he ends up tapping out the notes he's playing and then losing time.

Is there anything i can do to improve his situation?

haw · Post by **haw** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:10 am

Oops, posted that twice!

elysrand · Post by **elysrand** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:20 am

Perhaps it would help to get him a metronome. I know it sounds hokey, but hearing a steady beat while playing often helps develop a time sense. It is the bass, not the drums, that is the foundation of time and rhythm in a band, and the drummer follows that bass player to keep the time. So if anyone must have a metronome-like mind, it is the bass player.

Here is a website that provides a free online metronome, there are many other sources that sell the cheap electronic portable models as well:

http://www.metronomeonline.com/

leftybass · Post by **leftybass** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:23 am

I'd try a metronome to keep time, and have him concentrate on the tempo from that rather than tapping his feet.

grayk · Post by **grayk** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:24 am

I would give him some tracks to learn off a CD. Nothing complex but choose a track or two with very defined bass lines. I would say to him " for homework go away and learn this song by ear". He will then have to train his ear to pick out the bass line, learn it and then play along with it. This should in turn eventually help him with his timing. You can work on more of the theory side in the lesson then. He can sort his timing out in his own time. If he starts to be able to pick out a bass line, learn it and then play it to you at the next lesson then surely that would be good progress.

lars · Post by **lars** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:32 am

It seems some people has a difficulty tapping the beat when a accentuated offbeat note occurs. It can be rehearsed! It's kind of like being able to do circles with one hand, and up-down move with the other hand at the same time. Or like swimming or cycling...
Some people are natural, others have to work hard!

phlemmy · Post by **phlemmy** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:08 am

Give him something by AC/DC or Judas Priest's Breaking the Law to learn. If that doesn't help learn some timing, not much else will!

gray · Post by **gray** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:25 am

Yeah, the ol' Phil Rudd beat is the key!

If not, just have him get a cheap keyboard from anywhere and play along to the drum rhythms on it. I use keyboard beats as metronomes when I record drumless tracks all the time, as I've found metronomes can drive me nuts sometimes. Drum beats, mechanical or otherwise, still seem more natural to me, and easier to follow.

lyle_from_minneapolis · Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:54 am

Maybe take the bass out of his hands for awhile, have him either hum the line, or tap it out with his playing hand. Then you can focus on the rhythm side of it. A metronome will definitely help to learn, but not at a gig...so this eventually must be absorbed and felt, that sense of time passing in measured beats. Sometimes it's easier to grasp this concept without having to also play the bass.

Not everyone can learn this...in the end, you will be the judge of that. Good luck!

sharkboy · Post by **sharkboy** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:18 am

I think everybody is on the right track here.

Mark has a great idea about tapping to a metronome. It might even pay off to have him thump 1 with the thumb on his chest and the other beats with his palm. In this way he will sort of get the beat into his body. Practicing this often- especially a very concentrated effort at the beginning- should bring him in line, surprisingly quickly. I know some people who were able to teach themselves some incredible polyrhythms with two-handed tapping of different time signatures this way, but I lack the cranial substance to handle that.

This is kind of how I got over some of that blistering singer/songwriter timing that causes drummers to become homicidal- and just in time, too, as I'm able to type this.

An aside: I've seen this problem before too: I'm curious if this person has a case of "bass face"- where the facial muscles contort before the note played. Sometimes a lot of energy is used and this seems to cause chronus interruptus, as it is using some of the processor of the mind for those cute little facial tics that would otherwise be used by the picking hand.

geddeeee · Post by **geddeeee** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:08 am

Use a metronome for tempo, as Leftybass said. Unfortunately rhthym and feel take a lot more time to learn. Sometimes it can seem to take for ever!!! LOL!

rickenbrother · Post by **rickenbrother** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:34 am

I agree with the metronome. Also explain to him what the drummer is doing and how he has to pay attention to that and lock in with the drummer. AC/DC and Judas Priest are good to get him started because of the type of solid steady beat and simple bass parts. It takes some people a long time to understand how to get in sync with the beat. Some people have no sense of rhythm, others it comes naturally to.

s4001 · Post by **s4001** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:55 am

I'm going to go against the grain here, but I'm no fan of learning by metronome. It's my opinion that learning tempo, feel and the inside of a groove comes by playing along with music and/or musicians. Preferably playing with live musicians. I would suggest he play along with as many albums as possible. I played for years with a metronome and my tempo was still slack. One season with a decent drummer and my tempo was rock solid.

If he has a computer, recording along to drum tracks will shed the bright light of groove quickly.

geddeeee · Post by **geddeeee** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:37 am

Luckily I was born with a innate sense of tempo and feel. A born bass guitarist, I suppose. I agree with Scott's opinion on the metronome. I've never played with a metronome. I find it too rigid. Also my 2 other brothers play drums and guitar, so, ready made practice buddies....
I merely suggested the 'nome as a way to keep in time. It helps some folks, and hinders others. YMMV.

sharkboy · Post by **sharkboy** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:46 am

I didn't have the whole natural tempo or feel going for me. I could have done some of Steve Martin's double work in _The Jerk_ early on. It took a good while of working with a metronome for me to even try playing with a good drummer.

Working with a metronome has offered me a center from which I can move around, it hasn't turned me into a borg as far as I can tell.

Experience with the metronome has also has helped me deal with a click track when doing scratch recording tracks.