63 Duo Jet - finish??

porge · Post by **porge** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:37 pm

Guys....I'm real sorry for posting a non-rickenbacker type question, but can't find any info anywhere.

I just picked up a '63 Duo Jet that has suffered a natural re-fin. I'd like to go back to black (gold parts on a black guitar looks great). What kind of finish would the DJ have had from the factory? Nitro??

Thanks

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:42 am

Andrew: I suspect that the Curmudgeon will be making comment soon. You can see his comments under Reflections of a Curmudgeon.

porge · Post by **porge** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:47 am

Thanks Peter - will "pop" over...

Andrew

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:10 am

Andrew: Now that I have had my coffee, I meant you can see his general comments. I am sorry to have misled you. I will move this thread over there.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:20 am

Hi, Andrew.

A Duo-Jet of that vintage will have a nitrocellulose finish.

Here's where it can get a bit tricky:

If the "natural refinish" you mention was done with oil-base or alkyd materials, or even if it's a thick oiled finish over bare wood, this will have to be stripped back to bare, clean wood before the nitro finish can go on. Nitro (which was the first lacquer-type finish to be sprayed) uses a solvent blend which will attack any old finish under it--even old nitro. Now, old nitro is usually compatible with new nitro: the two will chemically bond well.

But the solvents in that new nitro will cause oil-based and alkyd (enamel) finishes to wrinkle and lift. Hence the stripping.

If the "natural" finish is wax, it still needs stripping, or you'll have an adhesion problem. If at any time in its past this finish was treated to anything but natural waxes (and how could you know--better to play it safe). there will be some silicone present in the wood's pores.

Yep, strip again.

And, if it's bare wood and you see some dirt or gray patches where there was contact with the player's arm or hand, besides stripping it, you'll also have to do some bleaching to get the wood back to its proper color and condition before painting. Besides dirt, there will be body oils (bleccchhh), which inhibit paint adhesion, too.

porge · Post by **porge** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:26 pm

HI Paul,
many, many thanks. The guitar is in transit, so I'll have a look see when it gets to my doorstep.
Cheers again - must buy you an anchor steam when I make it to SF in November

porge · Post by **porge** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:15 pm

Paul,
What do you recommend as a primer for nitro? I spoke to a spraypainter who happened to be a gutiarist as well - he recommended a 2-pak primer.

I had a "Danger, Danger" response to this...but I'm ignorant of spraying guitars. I was happy for him to spray my 1956 Matchless G80S, but seem to be baulking at letting him loose on my Gretsch

TIA

Andrew

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:44 pm

You could use a lacquer primer surfacer (PPG Kondar is good), but I, too would use a two-pack polyester product. I prefer Evercoat Slik Sand. Catalyze, reduce with acetone 10-15%, spray it on wet and smooth (no dry spray or orange peel!) and let harden overnight. Sand with #600 paper, wet with Windex, wipe with damp cloth, let dry, tack cloth, spray lacquer. This process gives awesome finishes. I'd also spray a couple of coats of clear nitro, then wet sand #2000 and buff by hand with fine compound. Yum!

porge · Post by **porge** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:53 pm

Cheers Paul - will pass onto Gene. Hopefully, I might pass on my spare 360/12 to him in the prcoess, or my 1997 Fender 52 reissue... must fund the Gretsch!

Any recommendations for the black (brandwise) - I need to shop around to find nitro over here.

Again, thanks a bunch

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:21 pm

Andrew, any furniture nitro will do. Try an industrial finish supplier.

britye · Post by **britye** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:08 pm

Kondar if I remember correctly is a high solids fast build primer surfacer. I liked it because it filled in a lot of the evil that the prima donna body man said was just my imagination. I agree 2 pack is better. Lacquer primer surfacer has a tendency to shrink and show sand scratches if it does not cure enough before painting.

jingle_jangle · Post by **jingle_jangle** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:37 am

Also, because lacquer is an evaporative material (it dries), and two=packs like polyester and urethanes are catalyzing materials (they cure), lacquer will continue to soften every time solvent is laid over it, as in subsequent finish coats. This causes the lacquer undercoats to swell again and shrink again, and--guess what? More sand scratch show-through.

This is why I avoid lacquer systems these days. This includes lacquer spot-putties, which I've replaced with polyester spot putties in my finishing materials arsenal.

britye · Post by **britye** » Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:25 pm

Ah, yes, it's been a long while but lacquer is dry time.. catalyzed material cure time. I'm suprised the manufactures are still making lacquer products or there is still a market for that stuff..