Saints and Searchers

admin · Post by **admin** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:39 pm

I have written a recent article with regard to "Saints and Searchers" which is now listed under the Articles section of Needles and Pins. You can find the article here.

jjr · Post by **jjr** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:29 pm

Great Article! That second guitar solo ripped my head off the first time I heard it, and still does. The most underrated song they ever did- and a great "what if"- what if Jackson had stayed, and they had done a few more in this vein, giving them much more versatility, and potentially wider audiences and greater longevity. Still one of my favorite tracks

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:07 am

Good point John. I have spent more than my fair share of time pondering over what the Searchers might have achieved had Tony Jackson remained with the group. In some sense, I view Jackson as the "Lennon of the Searchers." His voice was particularly unique like that of John Lennon and he had that "raw edge" that was in vogue. Pender and Curtis were at the McCartney end of the scale to me and provided a balance to Jackson's forcefulness. I have placed McNally somewhere in between.

I do consider that The Searchers would have had a higher profile (not that number 1 on the charts wasn't the stuff dreams were made of) and would have perhaps made a greater impact in North America.

I also speculate that The Searchers would have had "an edge" somewhat like that of "Tony Jackson and the Vibrations" had Tony not left.

einar · Post by **einar** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:26 am

Great reading, Peter! I read it like a crime fictional short story (what happens now..!). It must be more than 20 years since I heard this song, as the b-side of "SAS". (Coincidential: SAS= Sugar And Spice/Saints And Searchers??).It is ommitted from the "30th anniversary collection", strangely, as most of the Pye singles' b-sides are included. I remember it as a rather long track, 3 minutes +, quite unusual for the time, I think.
Peter, If I dare, perhaps a short comment on the Curtis version (the French, or is it German one)could have been in place?!

Einar

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 7:21 am

Einar: I believe you are talking about a French recording of Saints and Searchers. I will try to get a copy and give it a listen. Your point is well taken and certainly worth investigating. Merci

royclough · Post by **royclough** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:06 am

An excellent well written piece, perhaps this track was probably more indicitive of The Searchers prior to them joining PYE, their direction and sound subsequently became influenced by the choices of Tony Hatch I am sure

royclough · Post by **royclough** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:24 am

Einar

To my amazement I discovered two new Searchers tracks today because of you, I have never ever played the French Version of Saints or frankly any of the non English versions of their songs because I made, clearly wrongly, an assumption they were exactly the same except the language but no, as you state Curtis sings the French version and as an aside Mike Pender sings lead on the French version of "Its all been a Dream", to think I have had these for years and never realised. Thanks.

sowhat · Post by **sowhat** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:53 am

Great article Peter. Sounds as if you have been somewhere around when they were recording that.
Your associations with the Beatles are also interesting and take time to think. However... however, if i tried to associate the Searchers' singers with vocalists from the other bands that'd probably be this way...
Tony Jackson - Jeffrey Hyman (the Ramones)
Mike Pender - Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull)
Chris Curtis - Jimmy 'Jim Beam' Watson (the Quazimodos, the Exterminators, the Original Royals, etc, etc, etc...)
John McNally - Mark Knopfler (Dire Straits).
Sounds ridiculous perhaps...

admin · Post by **admin** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:44 pm

Sheena: I can see where you would make the comparisons you have. I am sure that John McNally wouldn't mind being spoken of in the same musical light as Mark Knopfler.

Einar: I have added a short piece about the Chris Curtis version, which should have been included the first time. Thanks for the suggestion.

Roy: Interesting comment with regard to the "Tony Hatch" factor. You are right, The Searchers' sound changed when they went "Downtown" to see Hatch.

jjr · Post by **jjr** » Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:24 am

Peter,

In addition to inventing "folk rock", and that "sound", can we credit the Searchers for popularizing the extended guitar break (Saints, Don't Cha Know, Some Other Guy) that became even more extended (and. perhaps, narcissistic) in the music of the late sixties. I don't recall anybody else from the British Invasion, who played guitar breaks in their songs (although I'm no expert)

Roy,

I think the path the Searchers followed was less Hatch, and more the result of Curtis' takeover of the band. It reminds me a bit of Phil Spector. When Sonny Bono (who was his A & R man) asked him in '64 what they were going to do next to change the Spector sound. Phil said something like, "Nothing". I think Curtis took the same approach.

admin · Post by **admin** » Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:07 am

John: It is my view that there were many groups that were using the "extended guitar break" in the early sixties. To my way of thinking, one very good example of this was the Beatles' cover of Roll Over Beethoven.

Released on November 22,1963 in the UK, this rock and roll classic written by Chuck Berry, it is one of several American compositions covered by The Beatles to include a solo lead break. The Beatles added their own stylistic touches, of course, that offered a uniqueness not in the original recording. These changes included lowering the key, slowing it down and giving it a rolling boogie-woogie rhythm. That Berry had a major influence on the The Beatles’ work, is apparent from the 30 compositions by Berry that they included in their live act from 1957 to 1962.

I consider that this is one of many examples illustrating that the Searchers' use of the lead break was not original but the accepted norm by the time Saints and Searchers was recorded.

einar · Post by **einar** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:57 am

I only now got the chance to hear the French version of "Saints", and was surprised by how totally different it is delivered vocally, compared to the Jackson version. This is something else than the rather dull "Nadelstiche" tradition, which Roy is hesitant about lending an ear to. (Did the French and Germans REALLY prefer Needles and pins and I wanna hold your hand in their own language??).
Peter describes Curtis' approach well in his essay. Why was such a chansonic style chosen? Remember, Chris could easily have copied Tony's shouting style, he was very good at that. But maybe he found it harder to scream and shout in a foreign language? His French sounds pretty good, doesn't it? As Peter says, the translation is also VERY independent to the traditional version. Who made the translation, and who chose this approach? Quite an interesting case!
Absolutely, Tony's version is superior. But I find Ils Chantaient il y a longtemps far more interesting to listen to, than Sugar and spice in German!
(Instrumentally, I could hardly hear the solo guitar in the French mix, and couldn't decide if the French is a total re-do of the song. Did anyone investigate? I suspect the only difference between "Nadelstiche" und "Needles" is the language?!

Einar
Member

royclough · Post by **royclough** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:38 am

I will ahve to check these out, as I stated Einar, had you not mentioned it, I would not have known that Saints in Franch was CC and equally It's All been A dream is MP not TJ.

einar · Post by **einar** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:04 am

Roy: That's nice! For a searcher, there'll always be new findings!
I can see my own French is poor, as "Saints" is relanguaged Ils la chantaient il y a longtemps.
Michael informs on his pages that it's the "old" instrumental backing with new vocals for the French tracks.
Curious: Michael Denger also tells that "Needles" peaked at no.8 in the German charts, and stayed there for 20 weeks. Is this, then, the English or the German version?? I presume that "Nadelstiche" was released as a single in Germany. Please enlighten me!

Einar