Has anyone attended this seminar or ones like it?
http://www.breitenbush.com/events/sept16-20stein.html
Learning to sing
Learning to sing
“The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it.” ....H. L. Mencken
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firstbassman
- Advanced Member
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- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:00 am
I've never attended this program, but have always wanted to go to Breitenbush. The pricing on this one would seem at first glance to be a good value, especially considering that he probably makes several hundred dollars an hour for his private lessons. I like the "natural" aspect of his marketing, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I would definitely recommend staying at the place to receive the greatest benefit.
There aren't a lot of huge differences between methods in teaching voice, however some of the focus between techniques is really important (this is my honest opinion, though this is something to which each method creator would probably argue to the death.) There are many exercises that pretty much everybody teaches, but how they are used and the volumes used to reproduce them are taught differently.
I went to a teacher in LA at a famous music school who tried to get new singers to belt out things. I didn't go back. Eventually, I started taking lessons from a teacher in Northern CA, who used the speech level techniques (she can belt like the best of them, but that's something to think about later.)
I believe that the first goal of any method should be to protect the voice. I went through the speech level singing technique that was developed by Seth Riggs (more on him in a bit.) The technique is mostly around teaching your body to feel what it's doing and improve the mechanics of how to do that. This starts out at low volumes and is designed to let you feel exactly what your body is doing. One big focus is how to move around the "mix area" that resides between "chest voice" and "falsetto". Singing across that break is the hardest thing to do and potentially the most dangerous for the voice. People who develop nodes do so on the part of their larynx that makes this voice change.
I have bought _Singing for the Stars_ by Seth Riggs ("voice teacher to the stars") and taken some private instruction from him. I recommend the book/CD set, but I don't think he, personally, was as good of a teacher (yeah, I know, seeing him once a year for a few years isn't the perfect test- but the bang-for-buck thing really wasn't good) as my own teacher, who understood the changes week-to-week, etc. (There were a few things about Seth's personality that drove me crazy- one is how he had to waste time telling me the same stories and drop the same names every time- it's in the book, I don't want to hear it, and I definitely don't want to pay this kind of money to hear it againandagainandagain.)
It is my belief that any technique that teaches you to protect the physical structures in the throat, help you to make pitch, learn to breathe provide some confidence in your abilities and assist you in understanding and developing your own vocal tone and to provide you with strategies and tactics for shaping notes/vowels/consonants/etc., then it is a good thing. I don't think you're going to get all that in a weekend, however.
A quick immersion program might be a good thing, but probably should be followed by some amount of vocal instruction for at least a while, to make sure that you continue to do the right things. Unless you have a very strong connection to your body, this is probably only a basic foundation for future things. It took me years to be able to really use vibrato well at all and I need to practice (I need to make a note of that) to be able to keep it and continue to use it. Or I could get Paul or Dale to attach an Accent tailpiece to my head- hmmm, an idea with virtually no downside!
There aren't a lot of huge differences between methods in teaching voice, however some of the focus between techniques is really important (this is my honest opinion, though this is something to which each method creator would probably argue to the death.) There are many exercises that pretty much everybody teaches, but how they are used and the volumes used to reproduce them are taught differently.
I went to a teacher in LA at a famous music school who tried to get new singers to belt out things. I didn't go back. Eventually, I started taking lessons from a teacher in Northern CA, who used the speech level techniques (she can belt like the best of them, but that's something to think about later.)
I believe that the first goal of any method should be to protect the voice. I went through the speech level singing technique that was developed by Seth Riggs (more on him in a bit.) The technique is mostly around teaching your body to feel what it's doing and improve the mechanics of how to do that. This starts out at low volumes and is designed to let you feel exactly what your body is doing. One big focus is how to move around the "mix area" that resides between "chest voice" and "falsetto". Singing across that break is the hardest thing to do and potentially the most dangerous for the voice. People who develop nodes do so on the part of their larynx that makes this voice change.
I have bought _Singing for the Stars_ by Seth Riggs ("voice teacher to the stars") and taken some private instruction from him. I recommend the book/CD set, but I don't think he, personally, was as good of a teacher (yeah, I know, seeing him once a year for a few years isn't the perfect test- but the bang-for-buck thing really wasn't good) as my own teacher, who understood the changes week-to-week, etc. (There were a few things about Seth's personality that drove me crazy- one is how he had to waste time telling me the same stories and drop the same names every time- it's in the book, I don't want to hear it, and I definitely don't want to pay this kind of money to hear it againandagainandagain.)
It is my belief that any technique that teaches you to protect the physical structures in the throat, help you to make pitch, learn to breathe provide some confidence in your abilities and assist you in understanding and developing your own vocal tone and to provide you with strategies and tactics for shaping notes/vowels/consonants/etc., then it is a good thing. I don't think you're going to get all that in a weekend, however.
A quick immersion program might be a good thing, but probably should be followed by some amount of vocal instruction for at least a while, to make sure that you continue to do the right things. Unless you have a very strong connection to your body, this is probably only a basic foundation for future things. It took me years to be able to really use vibrato well at all and I need to practice (I need to make a note of that) to be able to keep it and continue to use it. Or I could get Paul or Dale to attach an Accent tailpiece to my head- hmmm, an idea with virtually no downside!
"rubber heads don't dent easily"
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dale_fortune
- Intermediate Member
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firstbassman
- Advanced Member
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- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 6:00 am
Thanks Mark for the great info.
Reportedly singing incorrectly is what caused Phil Lesh to do damage and prevented him from signing for a couple of decades.
However, for my own purposes, I'm not looking to sing twenty songs a night on a nation-wide tour. I just want to be able to do some recording of my songs and maybe help out the band once in a while and stay on pitch.
Reportedly singing incorrectly is what caused Phil Lesh to do damage and prevented him from signing for a couple of decades.
However, for my own purposes, I'm not looking to sing twenty songs a night on a nation-wide tour. I just want to be able to do some recording of my songs and maybe help out the band once in a while and stay on pitch.
Since I'm mostly just the recipient of information here, it gives me a spot of glee whenever I have the opportunity to share something.
I have to say that singing was a really good thing for me, as it has given me a great outlet. Improving at it and developing a good range has given me more confidence when I'm around better musicians. It means that I can be in a band without feeling hopelessly insecure when around big players. Being good enough at it also means I don't really have to play with musicians who can't manage their parts. It has also prevented me from feeling weird when someone else gets laughs for my lyrics. Aside from vomit, I can deal with the projectiles.
Whether you're doing it for yourself or on tour, it's probably going to help you a lot to do it in a way that helps you take care of your voice and sound better.
I have to say that singing was a really good thing for me, as it has given me a great outlet. Improving at it and developing a good range has given me more confidence when I'm around better musicians. It means that I can be in a band without feeling hopelessly insecure when around big players. Being good enough at it also means I don't really have to play with musicians who can't manage their parts. It has also prevented me from feeling weird when someone else gets laughs for my lyrics. Aside from vomit, I can deal with the projectiles.
Whether you're doing it for yourself or on tour, it's probably going to help you a lot to do it in a way that helps you take care of your voice and sound better.
"rubber heads don't dent easily"
It does look like a good value, assuming they're teaching well, but this sentence gives me pause: "The results are stunning, even if you’ve never been able to carry a tune!" If you are tone deaf, you won't be able to sing well. Unless they're referring to all of the magical healing powers of your voice. Maybe you can still be magical, I don't know how that works.
I've been singing for many years; it's my main instrument. But it is like any other instrument: you have to practice to get to use it well. You can do other things that help, like training your ears (for many of the same reasons as if you were playing fretless bass), but you have to get out there and do it.
I'd recommend starting by singing in front of friends, or recording yourself (we all hate how we sound on tape, unless it's a professional recording). Be honest about your pitch and your precision, your phrasing, etc. If you're already a musician, you should be able to tell good singing from bad, and have some idea of what you should work on. Don't push yourself to sing something difficult for you at this stage, because that's when you hurt yourself.
Next I'd say go with a couple private lessons. I personally wouldn't think a big seminar would be good for someone who's a musician and wants to learn to sing. I suspect you'll be lumped in with a bunch of people who have zero musical experience (or talent), while you have a massive head start in terms of ear training, musical theory (learned or intuited), and general music knowledge.
I think that anyone who has a decent ear and a decent voice can learn to be at least a solid vocalist. Some people are born with better instruments than others (thank goodness we can't collect these instruments -- I'd hate to see that basement!), but even those with great instruments need to learn how to use them. I've known some amazing singers who don't have great natural voices, and singers with incredible voices who can't sing at all.
All I'm saying is, if you substitute singing with playing guitar in this seminar, would you go? I wouldn't (assuming my end goal was to learn to play the guitar well).
I've been singing for many years; it's my main instrument. But it is like any other instrument: you have to practice to get to use it well. You can do other things that help, like training your ears (for many of the same reasons as if you were playing fretless bass), but you have to get out there and do it.
I'd recommend starting by singing in front of friends, or recording yourself (we all hate how we sound on tape, unless it's a professional recording). Be honest about your pitch and your precision, your phrasing, etc. If you're already a musician, you should be able to tell good singing from bad, and have some idea of what you should work on. Don't push yourself to sing something difficult for you at this stage, because that's when you hurt yourself.
Next I'd say go with a couple private lessons. I personally wouldn't think a big seminar would be good for someone who's a musician and wants to learn to sing. I suspect you'll be lumped in with a bunch of people who have zero musical experience (or talent), while you have a massive head start in terms of ear training, musical theory (learned or intuited), and general music knowledge.
I think that anyone who has a decent ear and a decent voice can learn to be at least a solid vocalist. Some people are born with better instruments than others (thank goodness we can't collect these instruments -- I'd hate to see that basement!), but even those with great instruments need to learn how to use them. I've known some amazing singers who don't have great natural voices, and singers with incredible voices who can't sing at all.
All I'm saying is, if you substitute singing with playing guitar in this seminar, would you go? I wouldn't (assuming my end goal was to learn to play the guitar well).
"I never set out to be weird. It was always other people who called me weird." - F. Zappa
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lyle_from_minneapolis
- Advanced Member
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- Joined: Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:13 pm
Jake's got great advice.
A lot of people who really want to sing...don't. And as the years go by, their confidence can dwindle. I agree that if you are tone deaf, you can improve your voice, but you'll end up having a nicer tone while you still hit the wrong notes. But if you can hear pitch and just wish you sounded better, lessons will be a big help.
But ask yourself if you like some of the non-singers out there. How about Lou Reed? My cat sings better...but he is excellent all the same. Why? Because he confidently puts his real voice out there and only gives what he is capable of giving. As a result, you get a real, heartfelt vocal. Sometimes I think that singers who really wish they had a good voice...should just find different ways of interpreting a piece. No sense in trying to imitate Plant's original version of "Black Dog" if you can't do it, but you could still perform the song in your own way.
Not an easy challenge, but if Lou Reed performed "Black Dog" I think he could find a way to make it work in a remarkably different take. He sure as hell wouldn't try to hit the same notes that Plant did. The same would probably apply to someone like Marianne Faithfull.
Sometimes its better to gain a firm understanding of your vocal limitations, but then work the melody or interpretation to your own best advantage.
A lot of people who really want to sing...don't. And as the years go by, their confidence can dwindle. I agree that if you are tone deaf, you can improve your voice, but you'll end up having a nicer tone while you still hit the wrong notes. But if you can hear pitch and just wish you sounded better, lessons will be a big help.
But ask yourself if you like some of the non-singers out there. How about Lou Reed? My cat sings better...but he is excellent all the same. Why? Because he confidently puts his real voice out there and only gives what he is capable of giving. As a result, you get a real, heartfelt vocal. Sometimes I think that singers who really wish they had a good voice...should just find different ways of interpreting a piece. No sense in trying to imitate Plant's original version of "Black Dog" if you can't do it, but you could still perform the song in your own way.
Not an easy challenge, but if Lou Reed performed "Black Dog" I think he could find a way to make it work in a remarkably different take. He sure as hell wouldn't try to hit the same notes that Plant did. The same would probably apply to someone like Marianne Faithfull.
Sometimes its better to gain a firm understanding of your vocal limitations, but then work the melody or interpretation to your own best advantage.
Here is where I hide my music:
http://www.soundclick.com/MarkKaufman
http://www.soundclick.com/MarkKaufman
One thing is for sure - like any instrument, the voice has to be practiced. In 4 years with the band I went from HORRIBLE to eventually being able to contribute with decent backing vocals and one or two leads (Knockin on Heavens Door was my specialty).
But some guys just have a nice natural on-key voice and seem to effortlessly sound good.
I hate those guys!
But some guys just have a nice natural on-key voice and seem to effortlessly sound good.
I hate those guys!
“The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it.” ....H. L. Mencken