Chemical reactions to finishes - TRICLOSAN

[tmossman]

I switched to cleaning my hands with baby wipes and then rinsing before playing my 360 MID bleeder. I don't know if my method has impacted the results or if it finally stopped bleeding, but the blue stained binding has not gotten any worse since I switched from liquid soaps.

[tmossman]

Sorry David, bad use of words and sentence structure on my part.

If I wash with liquid soap, I then use a baby wipe and after that rinse well. Cleaning in that order has stopped all evidence of continued bleeding.

The bleeding is a symptom of the triclosan/CV interaction on the 2005 MID's. The bleeding of the blue onto the binding was slow and constant, but has now stopped with my revised cleaning system. I don't think the problem was an issue for other finishes. As an owner of two bleeding MID 2005 Rics I know it was an issue for them. I found this forum specifically because of this problem and never saw it referenced to any other finish but MID. That might explain the lack of response from others.

Note - I tried alcohol as well, but as I am also a rock climber and the combination of the alcohol and climbing chalk dried my hands to a mummy like state. I stopped using alcohol before I could determine if it helped.

[johnallg]

As I remember it, there was something about the MID paint formula that the triclosan caused to migrate. Once RIC figured out what was happening, they changed the formula. A search of the official RIC forums would give the whole story. It was only on the MID color that it happened.

[johnallg]

Here is one quote of Mr. Hall's I found on the topic - search the RIC forums for more.

"I hate to raise this issue again, Krose, but have you been using antiseptic hand soap regularly? The chlorine based compounds in many of them will react with the finish. Google "triclosan" to learn more."

But that is in response to a rippling of the clear finish.

[johnallg]

I haven't had a problem using Dial Antibacterial soft hand soap, but since it has softeners in it also that leave a "greasy" feel, I quit using it so as not to clog the roundwounds faster - they get dull sounding soon enough! I use whatever pump dishsoap my wife has near the sink. When out, I use my armpits!

[That's a joke, BTW!]

[jingle_jangle]

I remember nothing vis á vis triclosan and armpits; er, varnish. I do recall there being a chlorine reaction in the MID finish; a number of instruments were refinished by the factory, and the MID formula was changed.

But anything short of a blowtorch should leave the varnish unscathed. Excluding caustic solvents and paint-stripper, for the most part.

Interestingly, paint stripper of the methylene chloride variety, unless left on a recent RIC varnish finish for several minutes, do nothing except dull the varnish a bit. Once the stripper is removed/wiped off, and the varnish is allowed to re-harden, the scar can be buffed out completely.

[johnallg]

But anything short of a blowtorch should leave the varnish unscathed. Excluding caustic solvents and paint-stripper, for the most part.

Hasn't JH stated silicone based products shouldn't be used on CV? Like the guitar stands that can turn the finish milky?

[jingle_jangle]

The plasticizers in some of the cushioning on some guitar stands (wish I had a list to give out...), chemically termed "phthalates", are formulated to sacrifice their free radicals to the oxygen in the atmosphere, in order that the compounds they are added to stay flexible. Unfortunately, their instability makes them want to migrate into other materials, and other plastics are the most likely targets. So cured conversion varnish can become marred or even sticky if left in direct contact with vinyl or some other cushion material.

I have not had any problems with pure rubber tubing. Silicones in semi-solid form are pretty inert when it comes to reactivity...the solidification process is where their reactivity happens.

Silicones ON paint finishes (as many cheap waxes contain) is a no-no, as it makes it tougher to apply a new finish.

I trust the good Doctor Clauson will chime in if I'm off in my chemistry.

[johnallg]

It looks like I got a couple CV effects mixed. I haven't seen Gary since the change, and Joey reported Gary was on a sabatical from the forum.

[jingle_jangle]

Hmmm. Looks like my chemistry will go unchallenged for awhile...

[elysrand]

Hmmm. Looks like my chemistry will go unchallenged for awhile...

I dunno.... I believed in Better Living Through Chemistry in the late Sixties and early Seventies, and I practiced that belief by using my share of those chemicals. So you could say I have a great deal of experience too, Paul. They were really good chemicals, for the most part. Primo...

The down side is that I don't remember much about those days. All my friends tell me I had a great time, though

[beatlefreak]

They say if you can remember the sixties, you weren't there...

[doctorwho]

No problems with the chemistry as discussed, Paul.

I could make a highly technical observation about methylene chloride (a.k.a. dichloromethane) but then I'd have to explain it ... and bore everyone to sleep!

[jps]

If you broke it down into multiple posts, then your post count will go WAY up!

[jingle_jangle]

Gary, if you don't want to post it here, please drop me a line when you get a chance.

I'd be very interested to know if there is a connection between triclosan and methylene chloride. I've been long aware of the penetrant properties of the latter, whjere paint finishes are involved, and if the culprit in pigment migration was methylene chloride, it would be easy for me to understand this. But, not being a chemist, triclosan leaves a blank...are the two related in some way or another?