Intonating a 12 string w/6 saddles

[mcd220]

Hi Guys-I'm sure this has been addressed before; what do you guys recommend as far as intonating a CW12 w/6 saddles? Would you do all the main strings, and just have the octaves go along for the ride, or adjust each saddle somewhere in "The middle" to compensate.

The biggest issues on mine are the low E & D strings, the others are all extremely close. I do plan on putting the 12 saddles on at some point; I did this to my '67 366/12 when I had her, and loved the set-up.

I have heard meanderings about a bit of tone being lost with the 12 bridge, and I'm wondering if anyone can eloborate? Perhaps because of the size, density of the saddle??

Many thanks in advance,

Christian

"The Boxart Den"-World's largest display & collection of FULLY RESTORED rare & collectable model kit box art

http://theboxartden.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Box-Art

http://www.myspace.com/craviola990

http://www.youtube.com/craviola990

[squid]

The general consensus is that the 12 saddle bridge makes the guitar sound much brighter and delivers some strange vibrato-like sounds that come from the unison strings. You either love it or you don't. I prefer the 6 saddle bridge myself. I intonate the main string and then get the octave as close as I can. I'm rarely perfect either way, and I do play up the neck on mine (a 370/12). Intonation is dependent on string choice as well. John Hall has often said that perfect intonation on the low E is readily attainable so long as you're using a quality string. I use the standard Ric ones and have never had anyone say that I sounded ****** or out of tune. Maybe people are just being polite, but I doubt it.

[markos]

What I've normally done is adjust the saddle for a "middle" position as a compromise between the two strings.

Since I went to Tomastik-Infield flatwound strings, I haven't had any intonation troubles. Pickofthericks.com now carries 12-string sets of TI's for $27.49/set. Pyramids also intonate beautifully, but I think they have too much tension.

[myfretless]

I use a 12 saddle bridge on my 360-12 and I prefer it.

I do not notice any real difference in tone, especially given all the compression I tend to run through it.

I do notice a difference with the intonation comparing the 6 saddle and the 12 saddle; and I always use Rickenbacker strings.

[janglerocker]

Quick question on 12 strings while this thread is active. Should the depth of the saddle grooves be set up so the tops of the strings are level with each other? Who has tried it like this and is there much of a difference in feel?

[beatlefreak]

With a six saddle bridge, if you have a string pair that are noticeably off from each other, you might get them closer by adjusting one (or both) of the string gauges.

[teb]

Dan, MIne are both set up with the main strings and octaves even at their tops, though the strings all follow the fingerboard radius, so "level" is not a straight line across the bridge but instead, an arch. This actually makes the low E and A octave strings slightly higher above the body than their main strings and the primary B and high E slightly higher than their mates. One twelve has a six-saddle, presumably set up at the factory and the other a twelve-saddle set up by Mark Arnquist.

[mcd220]

Thanks SO MUCH guys for all the great info! Soaked up alot of knowledge.

Best, Christian


"The Boxart Den"-World's largest display & collection of FULLY RESTORED rare & collectable model kit box art

http://theboxartden.com

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Box-Art

http://www.myspace.com/craviola990

http://www.youtube.com/craviola990

[longboard_ric]

Hi Dan and Todd

After playing Gregg R's 330/12 recently I have come to the conclusion my 360/12 needs some set up work.

Ron Viney has also suggested making the tops of the strings level.

My 360/12 has the factory strings on it: would using a lighter gauge help ??? If so could you suggest a suitable brand.

You don't have any other tricks up your sleeve do you ????

[janglerocker]

Dan, MIne are both set up with the main strings and octaves even at their tops, though the strings all follow the fingerboard radius, so "level" is not a straight line across the bridge but instead, an arch. This actually makes the low E and A octave strings slightly higher above the body than their main strings and the primary B and high E slightly higher than their mates. One twelve has a six-saddle, presumably set up at the factory and the other a twelve-saddle set up by Mark Arnquist.

Thanks for the info, Todd. I understand about level not being level due to the arch of the bridge following the fretboard radius and with the octave strings sitting higher off the body than their larger gauge mates. Wouldn't the high E and B string pairs (which are the same gauge strings) sit at the same height, though?

My 360/12WB has the factory 12 saddle bridge and I recently had a custom nut done to maximize spacing and tighten up the pairs a bit. I think I'll be bringing it back to the shop to get the strings leveled. Just seems to make sense to have it set up that way.

[janglerocker]

Hi Dan and Todd

After playing Gregg R's 330/12 recently I have come to the conclusion my 360/12 needs some set up work.

Ron Viney has also suggested making the tops of the strings level.

My 360/12 has the factory strings on it: would using a lighter gauge help ??? If so could you suggest a suitable brand.

You don't have any other tricks up your sleeve do you ????

Shane, Mark Arnquist has some great notes on 12 string set up that he sent me. Very helpful and very detailed. I'd be glad to send you a copy if you like. I don't think Mark would mind since he sent them to me for free. Personally, I love the factory strings and would not recommend anything lighter.

[ozover50]

I have some notes on 12 string setup including some 'Arnquist' notes on my computer at home, Shane. Throw me an email if you're interested.

[teb]

Dan, what I mean is that the B&E pairs are level with each other (same diameter and the slots are the same depth) but due to the arch in the saddles, the string nearer the middle of the arch on these pairs is slightly higher above the top of the body than it's mate.

At this point, I'm not sure what to think about the twelve-saddle vs six-saddle thing. I've owned two RIC twelves that came with 12-saddle bridges (one factory, one Arnquist modified) and they both played in tune well, though the Arnquist-ed bridge was much more polished and de-burred than the factory bridge. Then I got my 360/12WB, which came with a 6-saddle bridge and was way off and I couldn't seem to adjust it to fix the problem. I had Arnquist do the 12-saddle conversion and a bunch of other stuff, including move the bridge plate back, and it now plays beautifully in tune. My latest 330/12 came with a 6-saddle and black hardware, which I switched for chrome. I bought the new adjustable base plate, slid it all the way back and set it up by ear. The intonation is excellent, even playing open E, A, and D chords an octave up the neck. I had Kenny send me a new 12-saddle assembly for it that's waiting to get installed, but that particular guitar just rings beautifully and I'm a little afraid to mess with the components that might be contributing to it's sound. I will replace the nut with an Arnquist nut for more fat-finger room and that nasty little metal plate under the truss rod nuts with a vintage-style, shaped aluminum block that won't bite into the wood (in my opinion, probably one of the best mods you can make on a Rickenbacker) but I may keep the six-saddle bridge and just clean up it's sharp edges.

[longboard_ric]

Hi Dan and Howard

Thanks very much for the info.

I've recieved your emails and am reading through them. It all looks a bit daunting to me and I must say with all this information you could probably make a University degree out of it !!!!

[beatle_bry]

..the strings all follow the fingerboard radius, so "level" is not a straight line across the bridge but instead, an arch...

Agreed! Follow the fretboard radius from about the mid-section of the neck after setting the truss, but don't use string height to "determine" intonation - Base height on playability/preference, and use the saddle to tweak your intonation.

I set this with a 12 saddle, but you get the idea: I like it ALAPWOB
http://thestringguy.com/PhotoAlbums/alb ... 0_1813.jpg
http://thestringguy.com/PhotoAlbums/alb ... 0_1814.jpg