Jingle vs: Jangle...Vintage Toasters

[ben_brown]

This may be beating a dead horse but I am curious. I understand that removing windings from a newer guitar Toaster will lower the inpedeance and therefor make it sound like it's vintage counterpart but what about Toasters on a bass? To get that Vintage Toaster bass sound what is more desirable? Were the toaster pups on the 60's 4001 basses hotter than the guitar Toasters? What is the optimum impedeance for a desirable Vintage bass Toaster? Is hotter better?

[jwr2]

pretty much all toasters are scatter wound to 7.4K ohms +/- ... except for a few years in the 80s when they made toasters 11 or 12 k ohms ...

I tested a modern toaster and a 60s toaster in the same bass the only difference is the 60s toaster magnets had degaussed a little making the 60s toaster a little softer and mellower ... so to my ears the modern toasters are a little brighter and janglier ...

the only difference between a guitar and bass toaster is the type of screws used to hold them in place ...

[beatlefreak]

I believe the 12k Ω toasters were made from about 1984 until about 1999. They can be identified (other than with an ohmmeter) by the phillips head screws on the corners of the pickup. The scatterwound 7.4k Ω toasters have slotted head screws.

[jwr2]

I have several 7.4k ohm toasters with phillips head screws ...

[beatle_bry]

I believe the 12k Ω toasters were made from about 1984 until about 1999....

I agree. Maybe even later than that past 2000. I've seen them over 13k Ω. Hot as #%**. Unwinding them is a great improvement (IMO). It will give a more balanced sound, and the G and D's strings will not stand out so much. I'd suggest the physics of this mod makes total sense too. Consider this: A magnet's pull is greatest in the center. A hot pickup (high ohm) has stronger magnetism which in turn pulls more in it's center which is directly over the D and G strings.

[heinpete]

I'm just trying to convert a new higain neck PU (with the allen screw mushroom heads pole pieces) into a toaster, but I can't find allan screws w/o mushrooms for pole pieces to replace the original ones. I'll be in Jersey City form 26. to 28. November; any shop there where I can ask for? Any forumite there to dring a beer with?

[jps]

Sorry, I don't dring!

[soundmasterg]

I agree. Maybe even later than that past 2000. I've seen them over 13k Ω. Hot as #%**. Unwinding them is a great improvement (IMO). It will give a more balanced sound, and the G and D's strings will not stand out so much. I'd suggest the physics of this mod makes total sense too. Consider this: A magnet's pull is greatest in the center. A hot pickup (high ohm) has stronger magnetism which in turn pulls more in it's center which is directly over the D and G strings.

There is some info there in your post which is incorrect. Hot pickups can have a stronger magnet, and do sometimes, but usually they have a higher DC resistance which is either due to more wire on the bobbin, or a smaller gauge of wire on the bobbin. The toaster pickup uses six alnico magnet polepieces. Each magnet has different metallurgy and will accept a different maximum charge level, otherwise known as the gauss level. Rickenbacker hasn't divulged how fully they charge the magnets, though in my experience with some modern toaster pickups, the magnets were charged fully. The magnetic fields overlap with each other due to the close proximity of the magnets, so they affect each other. Winding less or more wire on the pickup doesn't affect the magnetic strength of the pickup, though it does change the tone because if there is less wire, that means less resistance, which allows more highs through. It is also less wire in the magnetic field of the pickup which affects the overall power of the pickup. The hot toaster is nothingmore than a 7.4k toaster with more wire on the bobbin. There is nothing different with the magnets.

A hotter toaster might allow it to balance better with the bridge pickup in overall volume. As far as the tonal change, I can't say as I haven't tried it on a bass.

Greg

[ben_brown]

Makes a lot of sense Greg. The balance between the two pups doesn't bother me so much as they can be adjusted somewhat. I was more concerned with the tonal issue. Thanks for your input.

[johnallg]

Winding less or more wire on the pickup doesn't affect the magnetic strength of the pickup, though it does change the tone because if there is less wire, that means less resistance, which allows more highs through.

I though the more highs come from less windings having less interwinding capacitance.

[beatlefreak]

Don't forget that you're also dealing with the inductance generated by the pickup coil also.

[heinpete]

The pole pieces magnets on the new higain PUs are not magnetic at all!!! So what would be expected when I insert some alnicos there?

[soundmasterg]

I though the more highs come from less windings having less interwinding capacitance

Don't forget that you're also dealing with the inductance generated by the pickup coil also.

With pickups, everything is related to each other and every change affects several things. What I was trying to illustrate was that the difference between 7.4k toasters and the hot ~11k toasters is only with the amount of wire wound on the bobbin. The bobbin shape and size, and magnet strength are by and large identical between the two, the only difference is in the amount of wire. The biggest change resulting from more wire is that high frequencies have a harder time getting through the pickup due to more resistance, so the pickup will have a more mid-range tone with more power. Of course the inductance and AC resistance and capacitance change too, but most people can't measure that and don't know anything about it.

greg

[johnallg]

Greg, the treble loss is NOT due to increased wire resistance alone. The increased coil windings ADD more output due to more inductance, but with the added windings, the capacitance between the windings goes up and acts as a frequency filter and attenuates the highs more.

Peter, if you just stick metal rods back in, or grind the heads off the adjusting screws, the magnet under the coil will still work with the pole rods. OR you could pop off the magnet, get 6 alnico5 1/4" x 1/2" rod magnets and insert them.

[beatle_bry]

As I suggest above, wire winding does have a direct affect on magnetism. While different pickup designs may claim to counterbalance this, I don't understand how to ignore physics since magnetism is always the strongest in the center of its field.